[Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
Gardner, Douglas L. (LNG)
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:34:51 -0400
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Todd,
From your questions, I'm going to assume you have a standard rig.
Re: 1) I can't say for sure, because I've never seen a standard rig R22.
However, all of the other boats I've been on with a gooseneck work just like
you describe. The gooseneck itself is free to slide up and down, and it is
held in place by luff tension between the halyard and the downhaul. On my
old boat, the halyard was set to a fixed position, and luff tension (and
boom postion) were controlled by the downhaul.
2) Rudder shape and position. MJM is correct. Making a new rudder without
a good template would be far beyond my abilities.
But, you had a couple of other questions in there. On my boat, and every
other R22 I have heard report on the subject (except Roger's, which could be
a special case given its age and all of his special modifications), the
rudder is indeed forward of the vertical when it is properly positioned for
a neutral helm. Exactly how far forward probably varies by boat and by how
the rig is tuned.
Rudder shape: unless you have the new diamond board, the rudder on the R22
is the same as the OEM centerboard. If I remember my Rhodes history
correctly, Phil Rhodes never designed a rudder for the boat. Stan simply
took the centerboard, eliminated the axle that it swings on, and drilled a
hole at the "right" spot. The good news is that this rudder design
perfectly balances the boat. Exact design has varied over the years, but
mine is also weighted almost like the centerboard.
I don't know if this helps, but I thought it might.
--Doug Gardner
s/v Fretnaught
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Meltzer [mailto:mjm@michaelmeltzer.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 11:57 AM
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
1)Do you mean that the block that in the sail track is sliding up and down
with no pin to stop it travel?
2) Stright amswer please, how good are your boat building skill, replacing a
rudder without the old one for a templet is at the adavanved to expert
level, i.e call stan for new one or see if he can make a deal on a used one.
MJM
----- Original Message -----
From: Toad <mailto:sprocket80@hotmail.com> the Wet Sprocket
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org <mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
David, or Anyone,
Again, the newbie has questions. Two questions arose after reading
your letter.
1. My boat is an older model and the goose neck is free floating....and
has no "position". What method of positioning the boom do newer boats have?
2. This question is more important because I was going to be making a new
rudder. The previous owner had made the one on there now. The rudder
actually pivots down so far that it goes slightly past vertical and starts
to angle foreward. Is this by design?
Todd
Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com <mailto:sprocket80@hotmail.com>
From: "David Walker"
Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
To:
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:16:41 -0400
Joe, the weather helm you are experiencing is most likely due to the
heeling. When the hull heels its geomtry relative to the water changes
inducing whether helm. The is acutally a good thing, as when the rig gets
overpowered, the boat will autmatically tend to head up and luff the sails.
On my boat with moderate wind I can sail the 175 all the way out (full main
of course) and if I can keep her from heeling too much she is well balanced.
The amount of wind you can do this in will depend on your "movable
balllast". As you reef the jib, you should match with reelfing the main.
Many on the list will reccomend lowering the boom to the lower position as a
first reef. This will lower the COE of the main, but as the jib is 2x the
size of the main, its benefit is small.
Obvious, but also check to make sure the rudder is all the way down (leading
edge actually ahead of the pivot line).
Dave Walker
SV Windswept
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ware, Joseph W."
To: "List Rhodes (E-mail)"
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:55 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
> I have an IMF and 175 Genny. Under about 100% Genny the helm is balanced.
> When the Genny is pulled all the way out, and healing, there is a good
> amount of weather helm. I have to push the tiller hard to keep her going
> straight. Is normal, or is my rig set up wrong?
>
> Joe
> S/V Whisper
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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_______________________________________
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002>Todd, </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002> From your questions, I'm going to
assume you have a standard rig. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=621131217-27082002>Re:
1) I can't say for sure, because I've never seen a standard rig R22.
However, all of the other boats I've been on with a gooseneck work just like you
describe. The gooseneck itself is free to slide up and down, and it is
held in place by luff tension between the halyard and the downhaul. On my
old boat, the halyard was set to a fixed position, and luff tension (and boom
postion) were controlled by the downhaul.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=621131217-27082002>2)
Rudder shape and position. MJM is correct. Making a new rudder
without a good template would be far beyond my abilities.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=621131217-27082002>But,
you had a couple of other questions in there. On my boat, and every other
R22 I have heard report on the subject (except Roger's, which could be a special
case given its age and all of his special modifications), the rudder is indeed
forward of the vertical when it is properly positioned for a neutral helm.
Exactly how far forward probably varies by boat and by how the rig is
tuned. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002>Rudder shape: unless you have the new diamond board,
the rudder on the R22 is the same as the OEM centerboard. If I remember my
Rhodes history correctly, Phil Rhodes never designed a rudder for the
boat. Stan simply took the centerboard, eliminated the axle that it swings
on, and drilled a hole at the "right" spot. The good news is that this
rudder design perfectly balances the boat. Exact design has varied over the
years, but mine is also weighted almost like the centerboard.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002> I don't know if this helps, but I thought it
might.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002>--Doug Gardner </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=621131217-27082002>s/v
Fretnaught</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Verdana size=2><SPAN
class=621131217-27082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Michael Meltzer
[mailto:mjm@michaelmeltzer.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 27, 2002 11:57
AM<BR><B>To:</B> rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1)Do you mean that the block that in the sail
track is sliding up and down with no pin to stop it travel?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2) Stright amswer please, how good are your boat
building skill, replacing a rudder without the old one for a templet is at the
adavanved to expert level, i.e call stan for new one or see if he can make a
deal on a used one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>MJM</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A href="mailto:sprocket80@hotmail.com" title=sprocket80@hotmail.com>Toad
the Wet Sprocket</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org"
title=rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:12
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced
Helm</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>David, or Anyone,</P>
<P> Again, the newbie has questions. Two
questions arose after reading your letter.</P>
<P>1. My boat is an older model and the goose neck is free
floating....and has no "position". What method of positioning the boom
do newer boats have?</P>
<P>2. This question is more important because I was going
to be making a new rudder. The previous owner had made the
one on there now. The rudder actually pivots down so far
that it goes slightly past vertical and starts to angle foreward. Is
this by design?<BR><BR>Todd<BR><BR>Please respond to <A
href="mailto:sprocket80@hotmail.com">sprocket80@hotmail.com</A></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: "David Walker" <DAVID.WALKER5@ATTBI.COM>
<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
<DIV></DIV>To: <RHODES22-LIST@RHODES22.ORG>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
<DIV></DIV>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:16:41 -0400
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Joe, the weather helm you are experiencing is most likely due to
the
<DIV></DIV>heeling. When the hull heels its geomtry relative to the water
changes
<DIV></DIV>inducing whether helm. The is acutally a good thing, as when the
rig gets
<DIV></DIV>overpowered, the boat will autmatically tend to head up and luff
the sails.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>On my boat with moderate wind I can sail the 175 all the way out
(full main
<DIV></DIV>of course) and if I can keep her from heeling too much she is
well balanced.
<DIV></DIV>The amount of wind you can do this in will depend on your
"movable
<DIV></DIV>balllast". As you reef the jib, you should match with reelfing
the main.
<DIV></DIV>Many on the list will reccomend lowering the boom to the lower
position as a
<DIV></DIV>first reef. This will lower the COE of the main, but as the jib
is 2x the
<DIV></DIV>size of the main, its benefit is small.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Obvious, but also check to make sure the rudder is all the way
down (leading
<DIV></DIV>edge actually ahead of the pivot line).
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Dave Walker
<DIV></DIV>SV Windswept
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV></DIV>From: "Ware, Joseph W." <JOSEPH_WARE@MERCK.COM>
<DIV></DIV>To: "List Rhodes (E-mail)" <RHODES22-LIST@RHODES22.ORG>
<DIV></DIV>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:55 PM
<DIV></DIV>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> I have an IMF and 175 Genny. Under about 100% Genny the helm
is balanced.
<DIV></DIV>> When the Genny is pulled all the way out, and healing, there
is a good
<DIV></DIV>> amount of weather helm. I have to push the tiller hard to
keep her going
<DIV></DIV>> straight. Is normal, or is my rig set up wrong?
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Joe
<DIV></DIV>> S/V Whisper
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
<DIV></DIV>----
<DIV></DIV>> Notice: This e-mail message, together with any attachments,
contains
<DIV></DIV>information of Merck & Co., Inc. (Whitehouse Station, New
Jersey, USA) that
<DIV></DIV>may be confidential, proprietary copyrighted and/or legally
privileged, and
<DIV></DIV>is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named
in this
<DIV></DIV>message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received
this
<DIV></DIV>message in error, please immediately return this by e-mail and
then delete
<DIV></DIV>it.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>============================================================================
<DIV></DIV>==
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> _______________________________________
<DIV></DIV>> Subscribers, send mail to this address
Rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
<DIV></DIV>> To change your options or unsubscribe from the list click on
this link
<DIV></DIV>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list Check
out our
<DIV></DIV>> FAQ pages at http://www.geocities.com/blew_skies/topics.html
<DIV></DIV>> http://www.sailnet.com/ -Where Sailors Get It!
http://www.rhodes22.org
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________
<DIV></DIV>Subscribers, send mail to this address Rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
<DIV></DIV>To change your options or unsubscribe from the list click on this
link
<DIV></DIV>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list Check out
our
<DIV></DIV>FAQ pages at http://www.geocities.com/blew_skies/topics.html
<DIV></DIV>http://www.sailnet.com/ -Where Sailors Get It!
http://www.rhodes22.org
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