[Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
Steve Alm
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:23:59 -0500
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Roger,
Thanks for the input. I think you nailed it on the head with the lee helm
crossing over to weather helm at whatever wind speed. Lessons from an
expert wouldn=B9t hurt either. When should I expect you? :-)
Slim
S/V Fandango
On 8/27/02 9:46 PM, "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402@centurytel.net> wrote:
> Steve,
> =20
> First of all, let me admit something. I absolutely hate teaching people =
how
> to sail in light air. The effect of everything that one does in light ai=
r
> sailing is subtle & there is virtually no feedback thru the controls. In
> addition, it's very easy to screw everything up by not sitting still on t=
he
> boat or steering too much or not reacting properly to a wind shift. Doin=
g any
> of these can cause the weak laminar flow to separate from the sails &/or =
hull
> & cause a turbulent stall, which then requires several boatlengths for th=
e
> stalled flow to reattach itself & resume laminar flow. Basically, you mu=
st
> first learn how to sail & adjust the sail shaping controls in heavier air
> where there is some feedback thru the controls & the flow patterns are mo=
re
> robust. Then, you can apply what you've learned to light air. But, you =
are
> still adjusting the controls without any feedback because you simply "kno=
w"
> what the correct shape looks like. It's sort of a "Luke, Close Your Eyes=
&
> Feel The Force" kind of thing". If you were hoping for it to jump up & b=
ite
> you, then please realize that's not going to happen. I don't think it's
> possible to teach this skill hands off via the internet. It would be ver=
y
> helpful for all of you that are having this problem to get out on the wat=
er
> with an expert sailer & have them show you what to do in a hands on learn=
ing
> environment.
> =20
> Several people on the list have reported light air lee helm with the 175%
> genoa & the IMF mainsail. From a design standpoint, this sail plan
> configuration is certainly the one that would be expected to have this
> problem. It's got the biggest headsail & the smallest, least powerful
> mainsail. Dynamic Equilibrium does not have this sail plan configuration=
, so
> I can't give you specific instructions what to do. But, if it were my bo=
at
> with this problem & the adjustments I suggested in my previous post didn'=
t
> work, then I would get first get back to basics & verify that Newton's La=
ws of
> Motion still work. I would lengthen the forestay to the maximum adjustme=
nt
> possible, shorten the backstays to match, & then see if I still had light=
air
> lee helm. If I still had lee helm, then I would start adding shackles to=
the
> forestay to lengthen it even more. Don't worry about the appearance of t=
he
> mast rake, you've got to get the sail plan's center of effort somewhere i=
n the
> right ballpark first. Once I had the light air lee helm banished, then I
> would see how the feel of the helm changes when the wind speed increases.=
You
> may like what you find, but you may just as likely find you've introduced=
a
> strong dose of heavy air weather helm. In that case, you're going to hav=
e to
> live with a crossover between lee helm & weather helm & make a decision h=
ow
> much of each you want & what windspeed you want the crossover point to oc=
cur
> at.
> =20
> Light air lee helm may just be the favored mode of the 175% genoa & IMF
> mainsail sailplan configuration.
> =20
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> =20
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Steve Alm <mailto:salm@mn.rr.com>
>> To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 5:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
>>=20
>> Roger, Joe, Mary Lou, others,
>>=20
>> I while back I posted a question regarding my lee helm. I have the IMF =
/175.
>> When I=92m under full sail in light winds, I usually have a lee helm. Alt=
hough
>> I agree that this is not a big problem in light air, it still just doesn=
=92t
>> feel right. I tried raking my mast back. Disregarding the advice to go=
in
>> half inch increments, I lengthened the forestay about an inch and three
>> quarters; so much that I can easily see the aft rake of the mast when I =
stand
>> at the dock looking at the boat from the side. Amazingly, I noticed lit=
tle,
>> if any, real change in my helm! I=92ve experimented with the rudder rake =
and
>> concluded that it works best if it=92s all the way forward. Anything else=
and
>> the helm gets heavy and harder to steer. I=92ve experimented with the CB =
and
>> discovered that if I pull it up to about half, this helps but then I ass=
ume
>> I=92m losing my course to the lee. For this discussion, I=92m referring to
>> sailing upwind.
>>=20
>> I=92ve also been trying to correct the problem with the trim of the sails.
>> Sometimes I get it right (I=92ll settle for a neutral helm) but it always =
seems
>> to take a lot of tweaking. It=92s a given that I=92m not an expert sailor, =
but
>> most of the other boats I=92ve sailed have a natural weather helm and you =
have
>> to try hard to create a lee helm. My boat tends to be the other way aro=
und.
>> Under full sail with the IMF/175, the jib is certainly overpowering the =
main
>> and this just may be an inherent problem with this sail configuration an=
d
>> maybe it simply requires all this tweaking to get it right. Roger, you
>> mentioned leech telltails. Can you tell us more about this? Exactly wh=
ere
>> are they positioned and what are they supposed to do or not do? How abo=
ut
>> leech telltails on the jib? I have luff yarns on the jib but if I reef =
in at
>> all, of course, they=92re gone.
>>=20
>> Slim
>> S/V Fandango
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 8/27/02 7:12 AM, "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402@centurytel.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Mary Lou, Joe, Et All,
>>>=20
>>> If you are having lee helm with the 175% genoa in light air, then consi=
der
>>> trying the following before you lengthen the forestay:
>>>=20
>>> Slack off slightly on the mainsail's outhaul on the boom. This will
>>> increase the fullness or maximum draft in the mainsail's shape. In lig=
ht
>>> air, increasing the draft on the mainsail will power it up relative to =
the
>>> genoa, which should move the sail plan's center of effort aft & thus
>>> decrease your lee helm. (& make you go faster as well!) The downside i=
s
>>> that the new sail shape will be less forgiving of sail trimming & helms=
man
>>> errors. i.e., the "groove" will be narrower.
>>>=20
>>> +
>>>=20
>>> Tighten up the mainsail's leech line. This will cause the mainsail's l=
eech
>>> to curve ("hook") to windward. This will cause the mainsail's center o=
f
>>> effort to move aft, which will decrease lee helm.
>>>=20
>>> +
>>>=20
>>> Make certain you are using the main sheet & traveller properly. Watch =
your
>>> mainsail's leech telltales to be certain you are not overtrimming the
>>> mainsail, thus causing the airflow to stall. If you stall the airflow =
over
>>> the mainsail, the sail plan's center of effort will move forward & incr=
ease
>>> lee helm.
>>>=20
>>> +
>>>=20
>>> Make certain you are not overtrimming the genoa. The exhaust airflow c=
oming
>>> off an overtrimmed genoa will blanket the mainsail & induce the airflow=
on
>>> the leeward side of the mainsail to stall. See above bullet point
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> If these techniques solve your light air lee helm issues; then, it will=
be
>>> better than permanently raking the mast further aft, which will increas=
e
>>> weather helm under all conditions. Remember, these sail shape adjustme=
nts
>>> are subtle & a little bit of sail shape or sail trim change can have a
>>> significant effect.
>>>=20
>>> Good luck!
>>>=20
>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mary Lou Troy [mailto:mltroy@netreach.net]
>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:18 PM
>>> To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
>>> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> If you are fighting to keep the boat from falling off the wind you have=
lee
>>> helm not weather helm.
>>>=20
>>> With the 175 jib, lee helm can be a real issue. It certainly is on
>>> Fretless. In light to moderate winds when we have the full job and main=
out
>>> we have lee helm that we can only reduce by furling the jib somewhat. I=
n
>>> very light air, lee helm isn't an issue and we're glad for the 175. We =
have
>>> tightened the back stay as much as we can with the backstay adjuster. O=
ur
>>> next step is shorten the backstays one more notch so that we have a bit
>>> more leverage with the adjuster. We are also going to try setting the
>>> rudder so that it not quite all the way forward. The next step (next
>>> season) will be to let the jib stay out a notch. Stan suggested moving =
the
>>> knot on the centerboard line to let the board drop a bit further. That
>>> helped a bit.
>>>=20
>>> Any other ideas? We would be happy to hear other suggestions.
>>>=20
>>> Mary Lou
>>> 1991 R22 Fretless
>>> Swan Creek, MD / Ft. Washington, PA
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
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<TITLE>Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm</TITLE>
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<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">Roger,<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the input. I think you nailed it on the head with the lee =
helm crossing over to weather helm at whatever wind speed. Lessons fro=
m an expert wouldn’t hurt either. When should I expect you? &nbs=
p;:-)<BR>
<BR>
Slim<BR>
S/V Fandango<BR>
<BR>
On 8/27/02 9:46 PM, "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402@centurytel.net&g=
t; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Steve,<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">First of all, let me admit somethi=
ng. I absolutely hate teaching people how to sail in light air. =
The effect of everything that one does in light air sailing is subtle & =
there is virtually no feedback thru the controls. In addition, it's ve=
ry easy to screw everything up by not sitting still on the boat or steering =
too much or not reacting properly to a wind shift. Doing any of these =
can cause the weak laminar flow to separate from the sails &/or hull &am=
p; cause a turbulent stall, which then requires several boatlengths for the =
stalled flow to reattach itself & resume laminar flow. Basically, =
you must first learn how to sail & adjust the sail shaping controls in h=
eavier air where there is some feedback thru the controls & the flow pat=
terns are more robust. Then, you can apply what you've learned to ligh=
t air. But, you are still adjusting the controls without any feedback =
because you simply "know" what the correct shape looks like.  =
;It's sort of a "Luke, Close Your Eyes & Feel The Force" kind =
of thing". If you were hoping for it to jump up & bite you, t=
hen please realize that's not going to happen. I don't think it's poss=
ible to teach this skill hands off via the internet. It would be very =
helpful for all of you that are having this problem to get out on the water =
with an expert sailer & have them show you what to do in a hands on lear=
ning environment.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Several people on the list have re=
ported light air lee helm with the 175% genoa & the IMF mainsail. =
>From a design standpoint, this sail plan configuration is certainly the one =
that would be expected to have this problem. It's got the biggest head=
sail & the smallest, least powerful mainsail. Dynamic Equilibrium =
does not have this sail plan configuration, so I can't give you specific ins=
tructions what to do. But, if it were my boat with this problem & =
the adjustments I suggested in my previous post didn't work, then I would ge=
t first get back to basics & verify that Newton's Laws of Motion still w=
ork. I would lengthen the forestay to the maximum adjustment possible,=
shorten the backstays to match, & then see if I still had light air lee=
helm. If I still had lee helm, then I would start adding shackles to =
the forestay to lengthen it even more. Don't worry about the appearanc=
e of the mast rake, you've got to get the sail plan's center of effort somew=
here in the right ballpark first. Once I had the light air lee helm ba=
nished, then I would see how the feel of the helm changes when the wind spee=
d increases. You may like what you find, but you may just as likely fi=
nd you've introduced a strong dose of heavy air weather helm. In that =
case, you're going to have to live with a crossover between lee helm & w=
eather helm & make a decision how much of each you want & what winds=
peed you want the crossover point to occur at.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Light air lee helm may just be the=
favored mode of the 175% genoa & IMF mainsail sailplan configuration.<B=
R>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Roger Pihlaja<BR>
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><B>From:</B> Steve Alm <mailto:s=
alm@mn.rr.com> <BR>
<B>To:</B> rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 27, 2002 5:13 PM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm<BR>
<BR>
Roger, Joe, Mary Lou, others,<BR>
<BR>
I while back I posted a question regarding my lee helm. I have the IM=
F /175. When I=92m under full sail in light winds, I usually have a lee =
helm. Although I agree that this is not a big problem in light air, it=
still just doesn=92t feel right. I tried raking my mast back. Dis=
regarding the advice to go in half inch increments, I lengthened the f=
orestay about an inch and three quarters; so much that I can easily see the =
aft rake of the mast when I stand at the dock looking at the boat from the s=
ide. Amazingly, I noticed little, if any, real change in my helm! &nbs=
p;I=92ve experimented with the rudder rake and concluded that it works best if=
it=92s all the way forward. Anything else and the helm gets heavy and h=
arder to steer. I=92ve experimented with the CB and discovered that if I=
pull it up to about half, this helps but then I assume I=92m losing my course=
to the lee. For this discussion, I=92m referring to sailing upwind.<BR>
<BR>
I=92ve also been trying to correct the problem with the trim of the sails. &n=
bsp;Sometimes I get it right (I=92ll settle for a neutral helm) but it always =
seems to take a lot of tweaking. It=92s a given that I=92m not an expert s=
ailor, but most of the other boats I=92ve sailed have a natural weather helm a=
nd you have to try hard to create a lee helm. My boat tends to be the =
other way around. Under full sail with the IMF/175, the jib is certain=
ly overpowering the main and this just may be an inherent problem with this =
sail configuration and maybe it simply requires all this tweaking to get it =
right. Roger, you mentioned leech telltails. Can you tell us mor=
e about this? Exactly where are they positioned and what are they supp=
osed to do or not do? How about leech telltails on the jib? I ha=
ve luff yarns on the jib but if I reef in at all, of course, they=92re gone.<B=
R>
<BR>
Slim<BR>
S/V Fandango<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 8/27/02 7:12 AM, "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402@centurytel.net&g=
t; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Mary Lou, Joe, Et All,=
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">If you are having lee helm with th=
e 175% genoa in light air, then consider trying the following before you len=
gthen the forestay:<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Slack off slightly on the mainsail=
's outhaul on the boom. This will increase the fullness or maximum dra=
ft in the mainsail's shape. In light air, increasing the draft on the =
mainsail will power it up relative to the genoa, which should move the sail =
plan's center of effort aft & thus decrease your lee helm. (& make y=
ou go faster as well!) The downside is that the new sail shape will be=
less forgiving of sail trimming & helmsman errors. i.e., the &quo=
t;groove" will be narrower.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> +<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Tighten up the mainsail's leech li=
ne. This will cause the mainsail's leech to curve ("hook") t=
o windward. This will cause the mainsail's center of effort to move af=
t, which will decrease lee helm.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> +<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Make certain you are using the mai=
n sheet & traveller properly. Watch your mainsail's leech telltale=
s to be certain you are not overtrimming the mainsail, thus causing the airf=
low to stall. If you stall the airflow over the mainsail, the sail pla=
n's center of effort will move forward & increase lee helm.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> +<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Make certain you are not overtrimm=
ing the genoa. The exhaust airflow coming off an overtrimmed genoa wil=
l blanket the mainsail & induce the airflow on the leeward side of the m=
ainsail to stall. See above bullet point<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">If these techniques solve your lig=
ht air lee helm issues; then, it will be better than permanently raking the =
mast further aft, which will increase weather helm under all conditions. &nb=
sp;Remember, these sail shape adjustments are subtle & a little bit of s=
ail shape or sail trim change can have a significant effect.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Good luck!<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Roger Pihlaja<BR>
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Mary Lou Troy [mailto:mltroy@netreach.net]<BR>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:18 PM<BR>
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org<BR>
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If you are fighting to keep the boat from falling off the wind you have lee=
<BR>
helm not weather helm.<BR>
<BR>
With the 175 jib, lee helm can be a real issue. It certainly is on <BR>
Fretless. In light to moderate winds when we have the full job and main out=
<BR>
we have lee helm that we can only reduce by furling the jib somewhat. In <B=
R>
very light air, lee helm isn't an issue and we're glad for the 175. We have=
<BR>
tightened the back stay as much as we can with the backstay adjuster. Our <=
BR>
next step is shorten the backstays one more notch so that we have a bit <BR=
>
more leverage with the adjuster. We are also going to try setting the=
<BR>
rudder so that it not quite all the way forward. The next step (next <BR>
season) will be to let the jib stay out a notch. Stan suggested moving the =
<BR>
knot on the centerboard line to let the board drop a bit further. That <BR>
helped a bit.<BR>
<BR>
Any other ideas? We would be happy to hear other suggestions.<BR>
<BR>
Mary Lou<BR>
1991 R22 Fretless<BR>
Swan Creek, MD / Ft. Washington, PA<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT>
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