[Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source

[Todd Tavares]

Roger,

    It sounds like a great deal of work.  I thought mechanical engineering students did  only fun things like make concrete canoes.  :-D

     Where do you get your energy?  lol  (don't say corn)

Todd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 02:44:04 -0500
To: <kroposki at innova.net>,"The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source

> Rummy, et al,
> 
> It all depends where you "draw the box" around the ethanol from corn process
> to tally up the energy costs.  The studies that come up with a net negative
> energy production from turning corn into alcohol are penalizing the ethanol
> process for the energy required to mine the iron ore, turn it into steel to
> make the farm equipment, make the fertilizer, pesticides, etc in addition to
> all the energy associated with actually planting, watering, weeding,
> harvesting, fermenting, and distilling the alcohol.  If you do a more
> realistic energy balance around just the farm and the alcohol plant, current
> practices produce about 1.3X more energy than the process consumes & about
> 1.8 X is fairly easily achievable by widely applying the best available
> technology on the farm and in the alcohol plant.  But, the fact is that all
> energy sources are not created equal.  Liquid fuels, like gasoline and
> alcohol, that can be burned efficiently in today's internal combustion
> engines & handled by the existing liquid fuel infrastructure are more
> valuable to society than say wind power or solar power or electricity from
> coal that require huge stationary power plants, electric distribution
> networks, and electricity storage systems.  Yes, in a self-sustaining energy
> economy, we're going to need all those sources of energy & maybe a few more
> like fusion & fission nuclear.  But, there will always be a need for a high
> energy density, clean burning fuel for use in transportation, construction,
> and farm machinery.  Hydrogen burned in either internal combustion engines
> or fuel cells could serve the same purpose, but there are tremendous
> technical & safety problems and the technology is not there yet.
> 
> Roger
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 10:33 AM
> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> 
> 
> > Ron, Rummy,
> > If you use current dollars and expense this out, yes it cost
> > more to produce energy from corn, or other organics.  But, ad in the
> > what ifs and future costs and reliability factors, then it becomes a
> > concern of national interest.
> > If you have a rudimentary system in place to provide alternative
> > energy in the event of a problem, then you do not have to start from
> > zero.  So nationally, it is an appropriate investment for research.  You
> > develop the knowledge base and skills to deal with a problem.
> > History has shown that 'pure' research often filters down into
> > practical applications.  While the present costs are higher, who is to
> > say that Roger's idea, research, and applying the results, might not be
> > the thing that makes it cost effective?  Once the cost are about equal
> > then the economies of scale might kick in.
> > An important factor is jobs and opportunity.  Under the current
> > system the United States is using (wasting) economic wealth.  Anyway you
> > look at it, the money spent buying oil or any manufactured item overseas
> > is wealth in their pocket.  Even if they reinvest their wealth in
> > American stocks, bonds, etc, the wealth belongs to them, not us.
> > The current Republican argument is for free trade.  But this is
> > really transferring an important part of wealth away from us.  While
> > free trade may provide a cheaper product, the income of that item that
> > created the wealth is transferred to someone else.
> > This analogy can now be applied to General Boats.  Initially,
> > Stan made many of the elements of the Rhodes22.  He added other items
> > and manufactured a new item thereby creating a thing of new value, a new
> > wealth creation.  Now, Elton will use the market and skills learned with
> > the Rhodes 22 to sell the Seaward 26.  This no longer has the wealth
> > creation aspect (except to Hake Yachts).  It reselling may make money
> > for the intermediary, but no intrinsic wealth creation to the country.
> > Ed K
> >
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > I just saw an article on this.  A Cornell prof. who analysed ethanol
> > Production initially claimed that 70% more energy is used to produce
> > ethanol than it contains.  After some back and forth with industry
> > consultants he revised the number to 29%.  It's a high stakes political
> > game, as the recent energy bill showed.
> > A bill with many provisions distasteful to the Democrats was supported
> > by
> > the Democratic representatives from the farm states.
> >
> > Ron
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >
> > > Roger,
> > > Question? Is alcohol made from corn a viable energy source? It seems
> > to me
> > > that it takes more energy to produce the stuff than is realized from
> > it's
> > > production. Figuring in the costs of the farmer in energy to plant and
> > harvest (not
> > > to mention the gov't subsidies to plant it) and dry and store and then
> > turn it
> > > into alcohol, it seems like a losing battle.
> > >
> > > Rummy
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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