[Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source

Mon Dec 1 19:04:26 EST 2003

Todd,

I was under the impression the engineering students who make and race
concrete canoes were Civil Engineering students.

Lloyd

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source

> Roger,
>
>     It sounds like a great deal of work.  I thought mechanical engineering
students did  only fun things like make concrete canoes.  :-D
>
>      Where do you get your energy?  lol  (don't say corn)
>
> Todd
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 02:44:04 -0500
> To: <kroposki at innova.net>,"The Rhodes 22 mail list"
<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
>
> > Rummy, et al,
> >
> > It all depends where you "draw the box" around the ethanol from corn
process
> > to tally up the energy costs.  The studies that come up with a net
negative
> > energy production from turning corn into alcohol are penalizing the
ethanol
> > process for the energy required to mine the iron ore, turn it into steel
to
> > make the farm equipment, make the fertilizer, pesticides, etc in
addition to
> > all the energy associated with actually planting, watering, weeding,
> > harvesting, fermenting, and distilling the alcohol.  If you do a more
> > realistic energy balance around just the farm and the alcohol plant,
current
> > practices produce about 1.3X more energy than the process consumes &
about
> > 1.8 X is fairly easily achievable by widely applying the best available
> > technology on the farm and in the alcohol plant.  But, the fact is that
all
> > energy sources are not created equal.  Liquid fuels, like gasoline and
> > alcohol, that can be burned efficiently in today's internal combustion
> > engines & handled by the existing liquid fuel infrastructure are more
> > valuable to society than say wind power or solar power or electricity
from
> > coal that require huge stationary power plants, electric distribution
> > networks, and electricity storage systems.  Yes, in a self-sustaining
energy
> > economy, we're going to need all those sources of energy & maybe a few
more
> > like fusion & fission nuclear.  But, there will always be a need for a
high
> > energy density, clean burning fuel for use in transportation,
construction,
> > and farm machinery.  Hydrogen burned in either internal combustion
engines
> > or fuel cells could serve the same purpose, but there are tremendous
> > technical & safety problems and the technology is not there yet.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 10:33 AM
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> >
> >
> > > Ron, Rummy,
> > > If you use current dollars and expense this out, yes it cost
> > > more to produce energy from corn, or other organics.  But, ad in the
> > > what ifs and future costs and reliability factors, then it becomes a
> > > concern of national interest.
> > > If you have a rudimentary system in place to provide alternative
> > > energy in the event of a problem, then you do not have to start from
> > > zero.  So nationally, it is an appropriate investment for research.
You
> > > develop the knowledge base and skills to deal with a problem.
> > > History has shown that 'pure' research often filters down into
> > > practical applications.  While the present costs are higher, who is to
> > > say that Roger's idea, research, and applying the results, might not
be
> > > the thing that makes it cost effective?  Once the cost are about equal
> > > then the economies of scale might kick in.
> > > An important factor is jobs and opportunity.  Under the current
> > > system the United States is using (wasting) economic wealth.  Anyway
you
> > > look at it, the money spent buying oil or any manufactured item
overseas
> > > is wealth in their pocket.  Even if they reinvest their wealth in
> > > American stocks, bonds, etc, the wealth belongs to them, not us.
> > > The current Republican argument is for free trade.  But this is
> > > really transferring an important part of wealth away from us.  While
> > > free trade may provide a cheaper product, the income of that item that
> > > created the wealth is transferred to someone else.
> > > This analogy can now be applied to General Boats.  Initially,
> > > Stan made many of the elements of the Rhodes22.  He added other items
> > > and manufactured a new item thereby creating a thing of new value, a
new
> > > wealth creation.  Now, Elton will use the market and skills learned
with
> > > the Rhodes 22 to sell the Seaward 26.  This no longer has the wealth
> > > creation aspect (except to Hake Yachts).  It reselling may make money
> > > for the intermediary, but no intrinsic wealth creation to the country.
> > > Ed K
> > >
> > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > I just saw an article on this.  A Cornell prof. who analysed ethanol
> > > Production initially claimed that 70% more energy is used to produce
> > > ethanol than it contains.  After some back and forth with industry
> > > consultants he revised the number to 29%.  It's a high stakes
political
> > > game, as the recent energy bill showed.
> > > A bill with many provisions distasteful to the Democrats was supported
> > > by
> > > the Democratic representatives from the farm states.
> > >
> > > Ron
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >
> > > > Roger,
> > > > Question? Is alcohol made from corn a viable energy source? It seems
> > > to me
> > > > that it takes more energy to produce the stuff than is realized from
> > > it's
> > > > production. Figuring in the costs of the farmer in energy to plant
and
> > > harvest (not
> > > > to mention the gov't subsidies to plant it) and dry and store and
then
> > > turn it
> > > > into alcohol, it seems like a losing battle.
> > > >
> > > > Rummy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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>
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