[Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source

[Todd Tavares]

Lloyd,

     You may be correct.  Maybe the mechanical engineering students are the ones who make the rempte controlled machines to scoop up the most ping pong balls in two minutes.  lol

Todd


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lloyd Crowther" <lcrowther at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 19:04:26 -0500
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source

> Todd,
> 
> I was under the impression the engineering students who make and race
> concrete canoes were Civil Engineering students.
> 
> Lloyd
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 1:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> 
> 
> > Roger,
> >
> >     It sounds like a great deal of work.  I thought mechanical engineering
> students did  only fun things like make concrete canoes.  :-D
> >
> >      Where do you get your energy?  lol  (don't say corn)
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 02:44:04 -0500
> > To: <kroposki at innova.net>,"The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> >
> > > Rummy, et al,
> > >
> > > It all depends where you "draw the box" around the ethanol from corn
> process
> > > to tally up the energy costs.  The studies that come up with a net
> negative
> > > energy production from turning corn into alcohol are penalizing the
> ethanol
> > > process for the energy required to mine the iron ore, turn it into steel
> to
> > > make the farm equipment, make the fertilizer, pesticides, etc in
> addition to
> > > all the energy associated with actually planting, watering, weeding,
> > > harvesting, fermenting, and distilling the alcohol.  If you do a more
> > > realistic energy balance around just the farm and the alcohol plant,
> current
> > > practices produce about 1.3X more energy than the process consumes &
> about
> > > 1.8 X is fairly easily achievable by widely applying the best available
> > > technology on the farm and in the alcohol plant.  But, the fact is that
> all
> > > energy sources are not created equal.  Liquid fuels, like gasoline and
> > > alcohol, that can be burned efficiently in today's internal combustion
> > > engines & handled by the existing liquid fuel infrastructure are more
> > > valuable to society than say wind power or solar power or electricity
> from
> > > coal that require huge stationary power plants, electric distribution
> > > networks, and electricity storage systems.  Yes, in a self-sustaining
> energy
> > > economy, we're going to need all those sources of energy & maybe a few
> more
> > > like fusion & fission nuclear.  But, there will always be a need for a
> high
> > > energy density, clean burning fuel for use in transportation,
> construction,
> > > and farm machinery.  Hydrogen burned in either internal combustion
> engines
> > > or fuel cells could serve the same purpose, but there are tremendous
> > > technical & safety problems and the technology is not there yet.
> > >
> > > Roger
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 10:33 AM
> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> > >
> > >
> > > > Ron, Rummy,
> > > > If you use current dollars and expense this out, yes it cost
> > > > more to produce energy from corn, or other organics.  But, ad in the
> > > > what ifs and future costs and reliability factors, then it becomes a
> > > > concern of national interest.
> > > > If you have a rudimentary system in place to provide alternative
> > > > energy in the event of a problem, then you do not have to start from
> > > > zero.  So nationally, it is an appropriate investment for research.
> You
> > > > develop the knowledge base and skills to deal with a problem.
> > > > History has shown that 'pure' research often filters down into
> > > > practical applications.  While the present costs are higher, who is to
> > > > say that Roger's idea, research, and applying the results, might not
> be
> > > > the thing that makes it cost effective?  Once the cost are about equal
> > > > then the economies of scale might kick in.
> > > > An important factor is jobs and opportunity.  Under the current
> > > > system the United States is using (wasting) economic wealth.  Anyway
> you
> > > > look at it, the money spent buying oil or any manufactured item
> overseas
> > > > is wealth in their pocket.  Even if they reinvest their wealth in
> > > > American stocks, bonds, etc, the wealth belongs to them, not us.
> > > > The current Republican argument is for free trade.  But this is
> > > > really transferring an important part of wealth away from us.  While
> > > > free trade may provide a cheaper product, the income of that item that
> > > > created the wealth is transferred to someone else.
> > > > This analogy can now be applied to General Boats.  Initially,
> > > > Stan made many of the elements of the Rhodes22.  He added other items
> > > > and manufactured a new item thereby creating a thing of new value, a
> new
> > > > wealth creation.  Now, Elton will use the market and skills learned
> with
> > > > the Rhodes 22 to sell the Seaward 26.  This no longer has the wealth
> > > > creation aspect (except to Hake Yachts).  It reselling may make money
> > > > for the intermediary, but no intrinsic wealth creation to the country.
> > > > Ed K
> > > >
> > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > I just saw an article on this.  A Cornell prof. who analysed ethanol
> > > > Production initially claimed that 70% more energy is used to produce
> > > > ethanol than it contains.  After some back and forth with industry
> > > > consultants he revised the number to 29%.  It's a high stakes
> political
> > > > game, as the recent energy bill showed.
> > > > A bill with many provisions distasteful to the Democrats was supported
> > > > by
> > > > the Democratic representatives from the farm states.
> > > >
> > > > Ron
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > > > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >
> > > > > Roger,
> > > > > Question? Is alcohol made from corn a viable energy source? It seems
> > > > to me
> > > > > that it takes more energy to produce the stuff than is realized from
> > > > it's
> > > > > production. Figuring in the costs of the farmer in energy to plant
> and
> > > > harvest (not
> > > > > to mention the gov't subsidies to plant it) and dry and store and
> then
> > > > turn it
> > > > > into alcohol, it seems like a losing battle.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rummy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> > -- 
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list

-- 
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm