[Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source

[Roger Pihlaja]

Todd,

Just as we sent several space shots to the moon and back with hydrogen
powered fuel cells on board, hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles have been
operational here on earth since at least the early 1960's.  But, there is a
long way between the demonstration of one-of-a-kind, custom vehicles that
get all the TLC and maintenance in the world and a technology that is
sufficiently bullet-proof to be turned loose on the consumer.  The
infrastructure to produce, transport, and store hydrogen in the amounts
required by the transportation system does not exist.  It's kind of a
chicken vs. the egg issue.  No one wants to invest in the hydrogen
infrastructure before the vehicles are on the road (no market) and no one
wants to buy the hydrogen powered vehicles before the refueling
infrastructure is in place (no place to refuel).  By the way, the explosion
in space that crippled Apollo 13 was part of the fuel cell system.

Roger

----- Original Message -----
From: "m w" <weedface2 at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source


> ww.american hydrogen association has been running h2
> vehicles for 30+ years. how so? if this technology
> does not exist, perhaps it does but someone doesn't
> want the rest of the oil and coal burners to know it.
> --- Todd Tavares <sprocket80 at mail.com> wrote:
> > Roger,
> >
> >     It sounds like a great deal of work.  I thought
> > mechanical engineering students did  only fun things
> > like make concrete canoes.  :-D
> >
> >      Where do you get your energy?  lol  (don't say
> > corn)
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 02:44:04 -0500
> > To: <kroposki at innova.net>,"The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> >
> > > Rummy, et al,
> > >
> > > It all depends where you "draw the box" around the
> > ethanol from corn process
> > > to tally up the energy costs.  The studies that
> > come up with a net negative
> > > energy production from turning corn into alcohol
> > are penalizing the ethanol
> > > process for the energy required to mine the iron
> > ore, turn it into steel to
> > > make the farm equipment, make the fertilizer,
> > pesticides, etc in addition to
> > > all the energy associated with actually planting,
> > watering, weeding,
> > > harvesting, fermenting, and distilling the
> > alcohol.  If you do a more
> > > realistic energy balance around just the farm and
> > the alcohol plant, current
> > > practices produce about 1.3X more energy than the
> > process consumes & about
> > > 1.8 X is fairly easily achievable by widely
> > applying the best available
> > > technology on the farm and in the alcohol plant.
> > But, the fact is that all
> > > energy sources are not created equal.  Liquid
> > fuels, like gasoline and
> > > alcohol, that can be burned efficiently in today's
> > internal combustion
> > > engines & handled by the existing liquid fuel
> > infrastructure are more
> > > valuable to society than say wind power or solar
> > power or electricity from
> > > coal that require huge stationary power plants,
> > electric distribution
> > > networks, and electricity storage systems.  Yes,
> > in a self-sustaining energy
> > > economy, we're going to need all those sources of
> > energy & maybe a few more
> > > like fusion & fission nuclear.  But, there will
> > always be a need for a high
> > > energy density, clean burning fuel for use in
> > transportation, construction,
> > > and farm machinery.  Hydrogen burned in either
> > internal combustion engines
> > > or fuel cells could serve the same purpose, but
> > there are tremendous
> > > technical & safety problems and the technology is
> > not there yet.
> > >
> > > Roger
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 10:33 AM
> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> > >
> > >
> > > > Ron, Rummy,
> > > > If you use current dollars and expense this out,
> > yes it cost
> > > > more to produce energy from corn, or other
> > organics.  But, ad in the
> > > > what ifs and future costs and reliability
> > factors, then it becomes a
> > > > concern of national interest.
> > > > If you have a rudimentary system in place to
> > provide alternative
> > > > energy in the event of a problem, then you do
> > not have to start from
> > > > zero.  So nationally, it is an appropriate
> > investment for research.  You
> > > > develop the knowledge base and skills to deal
> > with a problem.
> > > > History has shown that 'pure' research often
> > filters down into
> > > > practical applications.  While the present costs
> > are higher, who is to
> > > > say that Roger's idea, research, and applying
> > the results, might not be
> > > > the thing that makes it cost effective?  Once
> > the cost are about equal
> > > > then the economies of scale might kick in.
> > > > An important factor is jobs and opportunity.
> > Under the current
> > > > system the United States is using (wasting)
> > economic wealth.  Anyway you
> > > > look at it, the money spent buying oil or any
> > manufactured item overseas
> > > > is wealth in their pocket.  Even if they
> > reinvest their wealth in
> > > > American stocks, bonds, etc, the wealth belongs
> > to them, not us.
> > > > The current Republican argument is for free
> > trade.  But this is
> > > > really transferring an important part of wealth
> > away from us.  While
> > > > free trade may provide a cheaper product, the
> > income of that item that
> > > > created the wealth is transferred to someone
> > else.
> > > > This analogy can now be applied to General
> > Boats.  Initially,
> > > > Stan made many of the elements of the Rhodes22.
> > He added other items
> > > > and manufactured a new item thereby creating a
> > thing of new value, a new
> > > > wealth creation.  Now, Elton will use the market
> > and skills learned with
> > > > the Rhodes 22 to sell the Seaward 26.  This no
> > longer has the wealth
> > > > creation aspect (except to Hake Yachts).  It
> > reselling may make money
> > > > for the intermediary, but no intrinsic wealth
> > creation to the country.
> > > > Ed K
> > > >
> > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > I just saw an article on this.  A Cornell prof.
> > who analysed ethanol
> > > > Production initially claimed that 70% more
> > energy is used to produce
> > > > ethanol than it contains.  After some back and
> > forth with industry
> > > > consultants he revised the number to 29%.  It's
> > a high stakes political
> > > > game, as the recent energy bill showed.
> > > > A bill with many provisions distasteful to the
> > Democrats was supported
> > > > by
> > > > the Democratic representatives from the farm
> > states.
> > > >
> > > > Ron
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > > > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >
> > > > > Roger,
> > > > > Question? Is alcohol made from corn a viable
> > energy source? It seems
> > > > to me
> > > > > that it takes more energy to produce the stuff
> > than is realized from
> > > > it's
> > > > > production. Figuring in the costs of the
> > farmer in energy to plant and
> > > > harvest (not
> > > > > to mention the gov't subsidies to plant it)
> > and dry and store and then
> > > > turn it
> > > > > into alcohol, it seems like a losing battle.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rummy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> > --
> >
> ___________________________________________________________
> > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> http://companion.yahoo.com/
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>