[Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
Sam at RR
SamFeder@cinci.rr.com
Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:49:22 -0500
Interesting!! I have been reading the comments with a good deal of
attention. Taxes in this country and many others have evolved(?) from a
method of financing government, to a form a social engineering. In so
doing, we have changed not only who we perceive ourselves to be, but how we
approach the problems inherent in governing. In my humble opinion, this
county has changed from being 'go and get it done.' type of people, to a
victim society. Some of this is due to our society, where many are told
they are 'entitled to..." when in fact they are offered the opportunity to
go and do for themselves. I am 68 yrs. old and it is with some regret that
I am forced to say that I have watched as the past 2 or 3 generations have
gone from the spirit of 'figure out how I can improve the world', to
"winning is everything." The Enron philosophy did not appear full blown.
It started with cheating to get better grades, and resume inflation and grew
from there. Why the proceeding? Well if you think about it, our
Politicians, reflect back to us, what they see in our society. Hence
"Bigger is better", "you are entitled to" (fill in the blanks) and "we can
do it all with no tax increases." If you want to make changes, you have to
pay for it! Alas, there will always be people who are, for what ever reason
unable to cope with the world they live in. Some have physical limitations,
other have mental problems. We should care for them to some extant. But
the ones who simply opt out, should we pay their way? I think not. Could
we use some rational thought in Washington, yes and YES. Are the answers
simple, no. Complex problems have clear, easy to understand, wrong answers.
And sometimes there simply are no answers that we can accept. I will now
step down, fold my soap box, and go back in the house. It is 8 mighty deg.
above Zero F. here.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: "brad haslett" <flybrad@yahoo.com>
To: <wwrhodes@rhodes22.com>; "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
<rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
> Stan,
>
> We probably agree on more than you might think. We
> certainly agree on this, corporations should not pay
> taxes, they only collect taxes and pass them on with
> higher prices. Furthermore, our corporate tax policy
> causes decision makers to "play the code" and
> mis-allocate resources. I agree with Bill that having
> a high sales tax in lieu of an income tax is
> regressive. That's a primary reason I live where I
> live. If it changes I'll probably move. Selfish?
> Hell yes, everyone is. That's why I wish we had a
> lottery. Gambling is the only vice I don't enjoy, I
> think its stupid. But if someone else wants to
> gamble, great! I love taxes that only stupid people
> pay. Our tax code has evolved as a function of social
> policy. People on the bottom of the food chain think
> folks further up should pay more. So do I, thats why
> I favor a flat tax. But, should the better off pay
> twice the rate? Three times the rate? Where do you
> draw the line? I like rich people. Poor people don't
> buy airplanes, rich folks do. If there had been more
> rich people around in the seventies I would have eaten
> more steaks and less macaroni and cheese. You'd have
> sold more boats too. Deng Xiao Ping (a communist you
> may recall) said it best in 1978, "to get rich is
> glorious". I'm not rich, I don't plan to be, and I'm
> not worried about it. What I do worry about is the
> growing sense of entitlement from ever increasing
> number of US citizens. I sat through economics 101,
> 102, and grad school economics. Did I miss something?
>
> Brad Haslett
> --- General Boats <wwrhodes@rhodes22.com> wrote:
> > brad - you might be right IF there weren't sales
> > taxes, toll taxes,
> > property taxes, corporate taxes (double taxation not
> > only on dividends
> > but on the buyers buying the products sold). payroll
> > taxes, gas taxes,
> > taxes on education, food, and on and on - If you
> > wiped all of these out
> > and raised the flat tax rate so it covered all the
> > expenses of
> > government, you might be right about a simple flat
> > tax - have to think
> > about that - but you have to think about how phony a
> > flat tax would be
> > if you just get around it by then continuing, and
> > adding to, all the
> > other taxes that currently make a flat tax idea a
> > joke.
> >
> > stan
> >
> > brad haslett wrote:
> >
> > > Dear List,
> > >
> > > This is a rant! Hit delete now and spare
> > yourself.
> > >
> > > Regressive? Why don't we use "progressive"
> > instead.
> > > The more money you make the more taxes you pay.
> > > Simple. Income taxes all start as a flat tax,
> > then
> > > the politicians start social meddling and certain
> > > groups get targeted while others are favored. To
> > quote
> > > an old timer from my hometown "someone always has
> > > their ox in the ditch and other folks are always
> > > having their ox gored". Frankly I'm not breathing
> > any
> > > more of the worlds oxygen or eating more groceries
> > > than I did when I was in college. Sure I make
> > more
> > > money now and pay more taxes but why should I be
> > a
> > > target? I don't feel the slightest hint of guilt
> > for
> > > rising at least one level above the survival
> > > threshold. Most of the kids I went to high school
> > > with are still living slightly above, if not at
> > the
> > > poverty level in that little "one horse town"
> > because
> > > they don't have any ambition to do anything else.
> > > That's the beauty of growing up in really small
> > > community, you know everyone and can blow holes in
> > > their excuses for not getting ahead. A flat tax
> > means
> > > you pay more if you make more, period. Anything
> > else
> > > means we have to favor one group over another for
> > > whatever reason and I strongly detest that.
> > Abraham
> > > Lincoln said "God must love poor people because he
> > > sure made a lot of them". If you re-distributed
> > the
> > > nations wealth equally tomorrow it would fall into
> > the
> > > same pattern twenty years from now. Simplistic
> > > attitude? Hell yes, this ain't rocket science!
> > >
> > > "One of the bitter lessons of the
> > twentieth-century
> > > welfare state is that a bureaucracy has an
> > apparently
> > > infinite capacity to absorb extra money without
> > > producing additional output", James P. Pinkerton,
> > > Atlantic Monthly, JAN/FEB 2003.
> > >
> > > Brad Haslett
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Bill Berner <bberner@optonline.net> wrote:
> > > > Wally -
> > > >
> > > > I respectfully disagree that a flat tax on wages
> > > > would be fair. Because
> > > > when you add in all of the other taxes and fees
> > that
> > > > must be paid for
> > > > everyone it would shift a disproportionate
> > amount of
> > > > total taxes to
> > > > those in the middle and lower income brackets,
> > > > creating a seriously
> > > > regressive tax system.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Berner
> > > > 191 South Broadway
> > > > Hastings on Hudson, NY 10706
> > > >
> > > > v 914 478 2896
> > > > f 914 478 3856
> > > > e BBerner@optonline.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org
> > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Wally Buck
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 3:39 PM
> > > > To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
> > > >
> > > > Stan,
> > > >
> > > > Usuall discliamer - hit delete now if not
> > interested
> > > > in taxes -
> > > >
> > > > I agree with some of what you said -
> > > >
> > > > >Just tried to
> > > > >point out that if you cut taxes for some, you
> > raise
> > > > them for others.
> > > >
> > > > This is not true!!!! You are missing one
> > critical
> > > > piece of the formula,
> > > > you
> > > > forgot to cut spending.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Re your wish for a flat tax, Bill B points out
> > that
> > > > in effect we
> > > > already
> > > > >have that.
> > > >
> > > > Well Bill tried to point that out, but he is
> > wrong.
> > > > We actually don't
> > > > have a
> > > > flat tax on wages. See IRS tax schedule if there
> > are
> > > > any doubts. If you
> > > > throw in all of the other various taxes it might
> > > > approach a flat tax
> > > > overall
> > > > but that is not the same thing. I think a flat
> > tax
> > > > on wages is fair. I
> > > > also
> > > > said we need to throw out the IRS book and start
> > > > over.
> > > >
> > > > More tax cutting will make the low end pay even
> > a
> > > > higher
> > > > >percentage of their earning towards their total
> > tax
> > > > burden compared to
> > > > >the wealthy end.
> > > >
> > > > If we had a flat tax how would this be true? If
> > you
> > > > are below certain
> > > > income
> > > > no taxes, above everyone pays the same %.
> > > >
> > > > Try Bill Gates
> > > > >father who has been outspoken against these
> > cuts.
> > > > I know a lot of
> > > > >variables influence Wall Street but it does
> > > > represent wealth and so far
> > > > >it is not applauding the tax cut.
> > > >
> > > > Well I am sure he is a great guy but why would I
> > > > want to take his word
> > > > for
> > > > anything? Previously this discussion did not
> > talk
> > > > about the current tax
> > > > plan. As it is written I am not for current plan
> > > > either. I still think
> > > > we
> > > > need to reduce taxes though.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Corporations should Not pay any taxes. They
> > are
> > > > not people and only
> > > > >pass on the cost of their taxes to the buyers
> > via
> > > > higher product prices
> > > > >which results in the buyer being double taxed.
> > > > This would also do away
> > > > >with the unfair double tax on dividends.
> > > >
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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