[Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was Confused and Stupid

[Steve]

Now there you have it:-) That even something I might
consider!!!!!!
Steve


--- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com> wrote:
> you are right, maybe I am saving some woman breast
> from cancer, and woman brests is something I do care
> about :-)
> 
> MJM
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 1:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> Confused and Stupid
> 
> 
> > Now Michael, you don't want to live forever do
> > you!!!!!
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > --- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> wrote:
> > > Bill Rodger is right, For a two stoke to work
> with a
> > > carbonator, both the intake value and the
> exhaust
> > > value have to be open at the
> > > same time in the cycle, and unburnt fuel go
> straight
> > > out, no debate and no way around it. That why
> they
> > > never meet the new EPA regs
> > > and their last year for sale is 2006(except CA
> where
> > > they are banned now). What some manufactures are
> > > doing to work around is
> > > replacing the carbonator with a fuel injector so
> the
> > > gas does not enter until the values are closed.
> > > Those injector pumps are not
> > > cheap and they have a computer control system
> with
> > > allot of sessiors. It make sence to install on a
> > > large engine but not one the
> > > small ones. that why they are going 4-stoke.
> > > 
> > > Bill remeber what the problem is here, take a 6
> > > gallion fuel tank and dump 2-3 gallions of it
> right
> > > in the water, I knowe you and
> > > you would never do it, but the 2-stoke is doing
> > > execty that.
> > > I only know what I read in the news papers about
> the
> > > crap in modern gas, but it not good at all for
> you
> > > to drink :-)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > MJM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:09 PM
> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> Confused
> > > and Stupid
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Glurge is the sending of inspirational (often
> > > supposedly "true") tales that conceal much
> darker
> > > meanings than the uplifting moral
> > > lessons they purport to offer, and that
> undermine
> > > their messages by fabricating and distorting
> > > historical fact in the guise of
> > > offering a "true story."" -snopes.com
> > > 
> > > Roger--
> > > 
> > > The marine engine industry has concocted this
> glurge
> > > and you keep repeating it.  They are trying to
> sell
> > > more motors, they don't
> > > give a damn about marine pollution.  2-cycle
> engines
> > > have not been banned.  More stringent
> regulations
> > > have been established.  The
> > > marine engine industry has now developed 2-cycle
> > > engines that are cleaner than most 4-cycle
> engines.
> > > 
> > > People on this list have constantly complained
> about
> > > the reliability of their 4-cycle engines--we
> read,
> > > year after year, elaborate
> > > rituals performed before and after every use by
> > > 4-cycle engine owners--what's more, the engines
> > > exhaust raw fuel into the water
> > > every time they fail to start; owners dump
> multiple
> > > "additives" directly into their fuel; they run
> their
> > > engines twice as long as
> > > they need them to drain all the fuel after every
> > > use; they dump the old oil into the water with
> every
> > > oil change; their engines leak
> > > oil directly into the water...
> > > 
> > > The population density of wretched excess
> > > conspicuous consumption boats is amazingly high
> > > wherever there is money.  Here on Long
> > > Island Sound I see 100 multi-engine gas guzzlers
> in
> > > operation for every PWC.
> > > 
> > > I know you are genuinely concerned about the
> > > environment, and your engineering background
> > > concentrated on removing pollutants
> > > emitted by internal combustion engines.  No one
> > > questions your competence in the technical
> aspects
> > > of this conversation.  However,
> > > with regard to the larger point of swapping in a
> > > reliable 2-cycle engine (which will be sold to
> and
> > > used by someone else) for a less
> > > reliable, brand new 4-cycle engine (which
> exacted
> > > additional environmental costs in its
> manufacture)
> > > to be used occasionally on a
> > > sailboat, I think you have allowed your
> technical
> > > expertise to cloud your common sense judgment.
> > > 
> > > Bill
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 6:53 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused Was
> > > (Stupid People Tricks)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Steve & Rummy,
> > > 
> > > Look, I'll be the 1st to agree that double &
> triple
> > > engined muscle boats are
> > > one of the most glaring examples of conspicuous
> > > consumption & wretched
> > > excess in the world today.  But, they mostly run
> > > with 4-cycle engines & they
> > > run mostly in deep water, far from shore, &
> their
> > > population density is
> > > usually pretty low.  Small 2-cycle outboards &
> PWC's
> > > tend to be much more
> > > numerous, used near shore, in estuaries, small
> bays,
> > > rivers, etc.  In other
> > > words, the small 2-cycle marine engines tend to
> be
> > > emitting their pollution
> > > into the waters that are the most productive &
> most
> > > vulnerable in terms of
> > > fish spawning grounds, insect larvae,
> crustaceans,
> > > plant life, etc.  Make no
> > > mistake, there is some BAD SHIT in 2-cycle
> exhaust
> > > smoke & the oily film
> > > that these machines lay down on the water;
> materials
> > > like dioxins,
> > > tetrahydrofurans (THF's) & other materials that
> are
> > > biologically active at
> > > parts per billion concentration & also tend to
> > > bioconcentrate up the food
> > > chain.  Gentlemen, this is a really bad deal!
> > > 
> > > Hey guys, I'm a sailor, just like you.  I'm also
> a
> > > professional chemical
> > > engineer, not some tree hugging
> environmentalist. 
> > > I've seen the water
> > > quality & biological sampling data & the
> supporting
> > > analysis.  These reports
> > > have convinced me that marine 2-cycle engines
> are a
> > > problem.  Certainly the
> > > small, low use, 2-cycle outboards used on our
> R-22's
> > > are not the biggest
> > > contributor to the problem; BUT, they are part
> of
> > > the problem & not part of
> > > the solution.  It's counterproductive to point
> your
> > > finger at muscleboats &
> > > say those folks should be banned until your own
> > > house is in order.  The
> > > environmental threat from 2-cycle marine engine
> > > exhaust emissions is real &
> > > not going away any time soon.  Which side of
> this
> > > issue do you want to be
> > > on?
> > > 
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
> > > To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:46 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused Was
> > > (Stupid People Tricks)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Rummy, I'm with you.  The heavy machinery is a
> > > much bigger problem.  I
> > > doubt
> > > > I burn more than fifteen gallons a season. 
> It's a
> > > goddang blowboat for
> > > > chirstsake!  If they ban 2 cycles, I would
> hope
> > > that they would put a cap
> > > on
> > > > it--like over 25 or something.
> > > > Slim
> > > > P.S. You're partying with the wrong people.
> > > >
> > > > On 7/17/03 6:54 PM, "John Tonjes"
> > > <johntonjes at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Roger,
> > > > > If 2 cycle engines are outlawed, there are
> going
> > > to be a lot of unhappy
> > > > > loggers, tree trimmers, grass maintenance
> > > compamies and homeowners who
> > > use
> > > > > them for everything from blowing leaves to
> > > mowing the lawn. Personally,
> > > I
> > > > > would prefer to see the 1000 hp cigarette
> boats
> > > with blowers outlawed
> > > long
> > > > > before the 2 cycles are done in. I talked
> with a
> > > guy a few weeks ago at
> > > a
> > > > > party with just such a boat. He can go in
> excess
> > > of 100mph on the water.
> > > I
> > > > > didn't bother asking about fuel consumption,
> but
> > > he did mention he
> > > carried
> > > > > 110 gallons of high test.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rummy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> [Original Message]
> > > > >> From: Roger Pihlaja
> <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> > > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >> Date: 7/17/2003 5:22:54 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused
> Was
> > > (Stupid People Tricks)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Steve,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Since 2-cycle engines are currently still
> legal
> > > to operate on most
> > > bodies
> > > > > of
> > > > >> water in the United States, everyone must
> > > decide for themselves what
> > > they
> > > > >> want to do re this issue.  Certainly, PWC's
> &
> > > large 2-cycle outboards
> > > > >> generate lots more pollution & waste much
> more
> > > fuel than the relatively
> > > > >> small & infrequently used outboards on our
> > > R-22's.  I realize replacing
> > > an
> > > > >> outboard engine is an expensive
> proposition.  I
> > > myself did not switch
> > > over
> > > > >> to 4-cycle engines overnight.  The 2-cycle
> > > Evinrude 6 came installed on
> > > > >> Dynamic Equilibrium when the boat was
> purchased
> > > in 1987 & we ran with
> > > that
> > > > >> engine for 9 years.  I replaced the 2-cycle
> > > Evinrude 6 on Dynamic
> > > > >> Equilibrium with the 4-cycle Honda 8 in
> 1996. 
> > > However, in that same
> > > > > year, I
> > > > >> converted the long shaft Evinrude 6 back to
> a
> > > standard length shaft &
> > > ran
> > > > >> the 2-cycle engine on our 10 foot
> inflatable
> > > sport dingy until 2000,
> > > when
> > > > > I
> > > > >> purchased the 4-cycle Honda 9.9.  I finally
> > > sold the 2-cycle Evinrude
> > > at a
> > > > >> yard sale in the summer of 2001.  By that
> > > point, the Evinrude was
> > > getting
> > > > > a
> > > > >> little tired & looked pretty scruffy, but
> it
> > > still ran reasonably well.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The nearly 2X greater fuel consumption &
> more
> > > than 10X greater exhaust
> > > > >> emissions issues with 2-cycle marine
> engines
> > > are real & well
> > > documented.
> > > > >> Their continued use does not represent good
> > > stewardship of the planet.
> > > > > The
> > > > >> real question everyone must ask themselves
> is,
> > > "Do you want to be part
> > > of
> > > > >> the problem or part of the solution?"  Long
> > > term, I think 2-cycle
> > > marine
> > > > >> engines will either be saddled with so much
> > > emissions control
> > > technology
> > > > >> that the cost, simplicity, & weight
> advantages
> > > over 4-cycle engines
> > > will
> > > > > go
> > > > >> away or the 2-cycle engine will be banned
> > > altogether.  There is already
> > > a
> > > > >> small but steadily growing list of bodies
> of
> > > water wherein it is
> > > illegal
> > > > > to
> > > > >> operate 2-cycle marine engines.  That's
> > > something to ponder when it
> > > comes
> > > > >> time to replace your current outboard.  If
> you
> > > wait until 2-cycle
> > > engines
> > > > >> are outlawed; then, your current outboard
> won't
> > > have much resale value.
> > > > >> I've already voted with my checkbook.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > > >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:37 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused
> Was
> > > (Stupid People Tricks)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Well, Roger, I am sure you saw this coming
> but
> > > I like
> > > > >>> my little 2 cycle motor.  Pollution &
> all:-)
> > > > >>> Steve
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --- Roger Pihlaja
> <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >>>> Richard,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I can usually follow your line of
> reasoning;
> > > but,
> > > > >>>> this time I'm confused.  The discussion
> was
> > > about
> > > > >>>> the relative merits of 2-cycle vs 4-cycle
> > > marine
> > > > >>>> engines.  What do alcohol burning model
> > > airplane
> > > > >>>> engines have to do with gasoline burning
> > > marine
> > > > >>>> engines?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >>>>
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
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> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
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> __________________________________________________
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> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
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> > > 
> > >
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