[Rhodes22-list] Engine Glurge

[Roger Pihlaja]

Bill,

I've cited all the scientific research I'm aware of on the subject.  I'm
sorry you don't believe it.  At present, nobody makes a small 2-cycle DFI
outboard that meets the upcoming emissions standards.  For all the technical
& economic reasons cited in the FAQ, no one is anyone likely to offer such a
product in the near future.  The engine in a personal watercraft falls into
what is known as the mid range to large horsepower class, not the small sub
10 hp range, which is appropriate for our trailerable sailboats.  When you
need to replace your small outboard engine after 2006, your only likely
choice will be a 4-cycle engine.

As I mentioned in the FAQ, at the present time, all of the marine engine
manufacturers except Honda continue to sell their old CME's.  They have to
keep selling them because they have a tremendous investment in CME
production facilities they need to keep active.  They need to sell their old
CME's in order to generate profits, & keep market share.  If they don't stay
profitable, they will not have the resources to develop & market the next
generation of engines that do meet the upcoming emission standards.  But,
after 2006, when they will only have their new technology engines to sell,
you can bet their tune will change.  Suddenly, every marine engine
manufacturer will be extolling the benefits of the reduced emissions &
better fuel economy from their new engines in an effort to shame the owners
of old CME's to trade them in.  I'll bet there will even be some sort of
"environmental rebate" if you trade an old CME in on a new emissions
standards compliant engine.

Of course, if you don't even run your engine long enough to warm it up
enough so it will run without choke; then, it will never wear out & you will
never have to face this engine replacement issue.  FYI - My Honda's will run
without choke within 30 seconds of a cold start.  Man, you must keep your
boat right on a deep water channel & must be able to practically sail into &
out of your dock if you never even warm your engine up.  I'll bet most R-22
owners use their engines much longer than you do.  I also dispute your claim
that small outboards are not routinely run at full throttle.  That simply
isn't true.  I'll bet small outboards spend a greater fraction of their
operating time at or near full throttle than larger motors do.  They need to
be run at or near full throttle to get up any speed or power against a
headwind or current.  Conversely, unlike large engines, small outboards
can't generate a dangerous level of speed even at full throttle, so there is
no incentive to throttle back like there is on a faster boat when conditions
get too rough to go fast.

The only loose end I haven't yet figured out is why so many R-22 owners
report starting & other reliability problems with their 4-cycle outboards.
My two 4-cycle Honda outboards have been nearly bulletproof & I don't do
anything special.  I've gone to the Consumer's Reports website; but,
evidently they don't test marine equipment, as there is nothing listed.
Practical Sailor doesn't list anything re small ( like 4 - 10 hp) 4-cycle
outboard
reliability.  I've visited several powerboating websites; but, they tend to
concentrate on the big motors with little or nothing on the little ones.
I've even visited several local marine dealerships (Evinrude, Mercury,
Honda, Suzuki), talked to the mechanics out in the shop, & pretty much
gotten a blank stare.  The only common element I've heard has been clogging
of the jets in the carburetor when the motor sits for a few days in between
uses.  They all say that disconnecting the fuel line & letting the engine
use up the gasoline in the float bowl is a good practice whenever the engine
is going to sit for a few days.  I've been doing that since day one, even
with my old 2-cycle Evinrude outboard.  Until our outboards are all fuel
injected, I think disconnecting the fuel line & running the carbs out of gas
is just cheap insurance.

My suspicion is that the quality of the set-up & maintenance the outboard
receives from the dealer & owner makes a big difference as well.

Good luck, Bill.  In a couple more years, public opinion is going to shift &
everyone is going to frown as you go by with old 2-cycle outboard smoking
away & leaving an oil slick in your wake.  But, you'll still be in denial &
you don't run your engine long enough for it to matter much anyway.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 1:34 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Engine Glurge


> Well,
>
> Not necessarily.
>
> Did you see the letter in the latest Practical Sailor about the guy with
the 2 hp Honda 4-stroke that was such a lemon Honda gave him a new engine
after more than a year of total unreliability?
>
> As a group, small 4-stroke engines are not as reliable as 2-strokes.  At
least not now.  Maybe never.
>
> All of the testing cited by Roger and Michael is for much larger engines
than the ones we use on our boats--and the engines are run nearly full
throttle--something we almost never do.
>
> Manufacturers have already demonstrated that they can develop 2-strokes
that meet the emissions requirements in the size engines they put into PWC.
>
> Take a look at this beauty from your friends at emissions concerned
Yamaha:
>
> http://www.marshallsmarine.com/pwc.html
>
> Please note that even Yamaha cites the reliability of 2-strokes over
equivalent 4-strokes.
>
> Small 4-stroke carburated engines like the ones we use on our boats do not
meet the cited specifications for fuel efficiency in the way we use our
boats.  Because they do not start reliably, and do not run reliably until
they are warm, they start with an over-rich fuel/air mixture--much of which
is dumped into the water, just like our 2-strokes.  By the time they warm
up, we turn them off.  We never run them at the tested RPM, and they never
achieve that efficiency.
>
> I'm sorry, Roger and Michael, if you find this thread frustrating, but you
are slanting your statistics, and presenting as fact information that is
inaccurate.
>
> When I have to buy another engine it will be as reliable, fuel efficient,
and environmentally friendly as possible.  But for people who have to make
that decision today, it's not so clear which way to go.  I don't think
someone should spend 10% of the value of a boat to buy a brand new 4-stroke
engine which will seldom be used, cannot be counted on, and will not be
nearly as environmentally superior to an older, cheaper 2-stroke, as your
posting would lead new Rhodes owners to believe.
>
> There.  I've said my piece.  Nothing more on this thread from me.
>
> Today.
>
> Bill Effros
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:00 AM
> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Engines.
>
>
> Well, I'm glad that we are going to finally clean up our lakes and
waterways.
> I still think the original legislation was passed to get rid of those
pesky
> personal watercraft, but the industry will adapt and conquer.
> By the time my 2 cycleTohatsu bites the dust, they should have all the
> problems worked out of the four strokes.
>
> Rummy
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