[Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on Going to War
Bill Berner
bberner@optonline.net
Wed, 26 Mar 2003 12:27:03 -0500
Rik -
I think you've hit the crux of our disagreement.
Frankly, I would say that an organized well considered foreign policy would
be to not change anything until you have a plan for what will replace it.
I would also maintain that going to war is not the only alternative to doing
"nothing".
You make a compelling case when you try to make the atrocities more
personal. I'm not going to step into the same trap that a certain
democratic presidential candidate once fell into face first.
But I do think it raises an interesting point about how the Bush admin. Has
presented the case for war, and I think it's been a big issue for a lot of
people, even moderates in this country (which, hough many will probably
disagree, is how I would characterize myself), and certainly LOTS of people
in the rest of the world. The administration has made its case, primarily,
not on the basis of humanitarianism, but the threat of potential future
aggression and terrorism. Understand, that is a criticism of the admin.,
and its justifications, not of your concerns. Similarly, the governments
justification for going to Afghanistan (which I supported) wan not based on
wanting to help Afghani women, but based on National Security. I would also
suggest to you that our actions in Serbia, Bosnia, etc. were also based not
on humanitarian concerns, but the destabilizing of Eastern Europe. In
Rwanda, where there was no strategic interest for the US, we sat on our
hands. We have not taken action against North Korea, whose population is
starving. And we activiely work with China, whose regime is still very
tough on dissidents.
I would argue that US foreign policy is not guided by humanitarian concerns,
but strategic interests. When the two happen to coincide, that's great,
when it doesn't, too bad. Maybe that is a cynical thought, but history I
think bears it out.
David Mcullough in his biography of John Adams guotes Adams when he with
Franklin was our attaché to France. I'll paraphrase - Diplomatic relations
are only based on mutual self interest, not doing whats right.
I don't think things have changed much.
Sorry for being long winded.
BB
Bill Berner
191 South Broadway
Hastings on Hudson, NY 10706
v 914 478 2896
f 914 478 3856
e BBerner@optonline.net
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rik Sandberg
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:28 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on Going to War
Bill,
you wrote
"Getting rid of a dictator does not necessarily mean that what follows will
be better"
That is certainly a valid point. BUT, does this then make it right to just
do nothing? There is one sure bet here. Whoever replaces Saddam Hussein
would have to work very hard to be a worse example of humanity. There is
virtually no chance for a positive change as long as this man is in power.
I think that these things are happening a long ways from home and are
pretty easy to ignore. Would you feel the same if they sent you a video
tape of the gang rape of your wife to punish you for speaking out against
our government policies?? If you were dragged off in the night to be
electrically shocked and beaten with metal rods, maybe sodomized with a
stick, would you not pray that there was someone in the world with enough
guts to offer you some help??? Or, would you still side with the folks that
want to continue trading oil for weapons?
There is a cliche that goes; the definition of insanity is doing the same
thing over and over again while expecting a different result. It's time to
change the pattern here.
Rik
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:24:56 -0500, Bill Berner <bberner@optonline.net>
wrote:
> To use a metaphor - Cutting off someones head is not necessarily an
> effective cure for brain cancer.
>
> Getting rid of a dictator does not necessarily mean that what follows
> will
> be better, and there is no indication that there is a plan for who to
> build
> a new Iraq that will hold together the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunni's in =
a
> way
> that doesn't just as brutally repress one or more of those groups. I
> repeat
> myself, but the US doesn't have a great record when it comes to =
sustained
> follow through at nation building, and in Iraq we will be trying to do =
it
> in
> a place where we are, to put it kindly, not trusted by the populace,
> especially because of our abandoning the Kurds in the north and =
Shiites
> (I
> think) in the South when they regbelled against Hussein after the last =
> war.
>
>
> Bill Berner
> 191 South Broadway
> Hastings on Hudson, NY 10706
> v 914 478 2896
> f 914 478 3856
> e BBerner@optonline.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rik Sandberg
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:35 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on Going to War
>
> Sorry Bill,
>
> But I'm not quite that wishy washy. Some things are just plain wrong =
and
> need to get "cured". It seems that the US is the only country in the
> world that
> is willing to spearhead the effort. Most of the rest are willing to
> overlook Saddam's atrosities for the sake of the profits they are =
making
> by trading him weapons and such for his oil. Again, where are our
> priorities here??? Saddam Hussein is about as good an example of wrong =
as
> I have seen in a long
>
> time, I truly can't believe that he has lived this long.
>
> Rik
>
>
> On Wednesday 26 March 2003 08:58 am, you wrote:
>> "Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is =
the
>> leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a =
simple
>> matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
>> dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or =
no
>> voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the =
leaders.
>> This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being =
attacked,
> and
>> denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the =
country
>> to
>> danger. It works the same in every country."
>>
>> Hermann Goering
>> Hitler's Reich-Marshall
>> At the Nuremberg Trials
>> _________________________________________________
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>
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