[Rhodes22-list] Stan, CAUTION, politics ahead

Thu May 29 22:52:48 EDT 2003

I be happy to admit "that if the US did not have a self serving interest why bother",

Did we care that Stalin killed the Ukraine?
Turks vs. Armenians ?
PalPot and Cambodia ?
Hitler and the Jews?
Mao and China ?
Iran vs Iraq ?
South America pick almost any year?
Africa pick almost any year?

The key ingredient is somehow the US has to feel that it interest are at stake, my it be oil, bananas, rubber, coaling stations,
even to sell news papers, etc... To be frank about it oil is this years commodity but it been others in the pass. Sodom will  still
have Iraq if he simply left us alone. The oil got us looking at him, but lack of control, being unpredictable, people believing he
would be willing to do something to us. Very much like the coldwar. remember the report on Iraq were bad new, nut case, would do it,
is trying stick it to us. The leader is asking what can be done about it, all his advisers simple do not know with the guy. And what
they do know is terrible. It not the oil here, it the fear of the unknow.

MJM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stan, CAUTION, politics ahead

> I think you are missing the obvious, that is if there was no oil in the
> region we would never have been there in the first place. I don't question
> your points but if there was no oil no Desert Storm, no fly zones would not
> exist, oil for food  would not exist, weapn inspections would not exist and
> so on. If Kuwait did not have oil we would not have come to the rescue.
>
> Don't get me wrong I am glad the guy is no longer in power I just think it
> is obvious that the reason we care is because of the oil.
>
> Wally
>
>
> >From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stan, CAUTION, politics ahead
> >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:43:58 -0400
> >
> >I think you guys are missing the oblivious. It was exactly what it was.
> >
> >1)they simple did not like him, deep hated and mistrust... It really that
> >simple, they had his history, 2 wars, gas his own people,
> >rape/kill for control, starve his people for PR, etc.. it might not have
> >been on the US media radar but it was on leaders radar(and
> >every worker who job it was to watch the area), trying to kill dad did not
> >help. deeply felt repulsion at a moral level by the
> >leaders/works to him, No one to stand up for him. Thought in "everything he
> >says is a lie"
> >2)He and is sons where considered crazy, as in every report crossing desks
> >"We have no idea what he will do, but here is  his
> >history"
> >3)He like to stick it to the US every chance he got, No Fly zone shootings,
> >The UN, oil for food, playing with WMD. keep him self on
> >the radars(unlike Libya).
> >4)Remember the people who are doing the government analyst are human, see
> >item 1-3, They really thought he would use a nuke, germs
> >or any thing else he could get his hands on. Any worst case idea US
> >analyst's came up with seemed to be answered "He could do it and
> >would do it when he can". You could see it in everyone actions. Most of the
> >action the leaders took looks like it was "For the good
> >of the nation and it is the right thing to do. motive".
> >5)Their is nothing magical about the intelligent here, the NY time and a
> >Tom Clancy will tell you how they are doing it. The problem
> >is allot of it like a "ink blot test", they had  hard intelligent from
> >years ago and a lot of softer stuff now(invoices, wiretaps,
> >radio, overhead pictures), but those pesky human's from item 1-4 do color
> >it.
> >6)it was for oil but at the same time not, I do believe they ment the oil
> >for the people.
> >7)they where/are all kind of side benefits, Iran, Syria, Big Dog on the
> >block, The Economy(as in was is good for it). and Sodom will
> >kill people in a month then the war.
> >8)The contracts are a red herring, They by natural were a DOD contract
> >spec, saw the posting when it happened, it was all theory,
> >Oboy, only a few companies could  fill out the contract, the companies do
> >have/hire exgoverment people, it happened, not planed.
> >
> >My option. I think the oblivious explains allot more then looking for the
> >"secret" reason. As in they played it straight up as they
> >saw it and tried to do the right thing(including killing people to do it).
> >
> >BTW Any one watching the Congo lately.
> >
> >MJM
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 4:55 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stan, CAUTION, politics ahead
> >
> >
> > > Wally,
> > >
> > > One correction to your observation; Qatar was the base
> > > for our command center in the region and is a Muslim
> > > country.
> > >
> > > In a nutshell, I agree that oil is at the bottom line
> > > of much of the Gulf regions problems and our interest
> > > in military intervention.  Those countries would still
> > > dispute Israel's right to exist, but, without oil they
> > > wouldn't have the means to build the armies that
> > > really pose a threat to Israel and each other.
> > > Without oil our response to the area would be much
> > > like our response to most of Africa; tragic but not in
> > > our interests to do anything about it.
> > >
> > > Here is where I disagree with most of the "blood for
> > > oil" proponents; all but the last third of Iraq's oil
> > > production is already on the world market.  Assuming
> > > that we don't just outright annex the Iraqi oil fields
> > > (and we're not) they still get the money from the oil.
> > >  Sure, American oil companies will get contracts for
> > > field improvements (as opposed to some French and
> > > Russian companies who are presently there) and the big
> > > oil companies (they are almost all multi-national
> > > companies now so its hard to call them American) will
> > > get some shipping and distribution contracts, BUT,
> > > very little NEW oil will enter the marketplace.
> > > Contrary to what many folks think, or know about the
> > > domestic oil industry, cheap oil hurts domestic
> > > producers in the long run.  Hypothetical:  If GW was
> > > still in the oil business and whoever was President
> > > bombed the Iraqi oil fields out of existance, it would
> > > save his company from seeking a buyout instead of
> > > filing bankruptcy.  See my point?
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Heck Brad, can't you tell I love politcal debates.
> > > > It takes a lot to piss me
> > > > off and even more to offend. I always try to keep a
> > > > some what open mind and
> > > > some times my opinion can be swayed.
> > > > >
> > > > >BH......... Ending worldwide terrorism is in the
> > > > best
> > > > >interest of the worldwide economy, not just ours.
> > > > >Whether you like it or not our economy is very
> > > > >inter-dependent with other nations.  Look at what
> > > > >happened to the stock market after the Towers fell.
> > > > >While financial health may sound like a bad thing
> > > > to
> > > > >some folks, a failing economy hurts everyone
> > > > >regardless of financial position.  Frankly, our
> > > > only
> > > > >stable and reliable ally in the region is Israel.
> > > > The
> > > > >House of Saud is crumbling and has been the source
> > > > of
> > > > >many of the discontents.  Iraq WAS funding
> > > > political
> > > > >instability in the region.  The radical Muslums
> > > > have
> > > > >proven that they can and will attack us on our own
> > > > >soil.  How can you ignore instability in the region
> > > > as
> > > > >a threat?.................BH
> > > >
> > > > Of course ending terrorism is a good thing and
> > > > obvioulsy our econmoy is
> > > > effected by the world economy. I do think going in
> > > > after Bin laden was the
> > > > right thing to do. And of course financial health is
> > > > a good thing. Some
> > > > times I have to chuckle about our ally Isreal. How
> > > > did we wind up being
> > > > friends with one of the few countries in the middle
> > > > east with no oil. :)
> > > > Just kidding here. Instability in the region may be
> > > > a financial threat but I
> > > > don't think it was a threat to our National
> > > > Security, just our wallet. Most
> > > > of what you say is true and this just supports the
> > > > claim that oil was one of
> > > > the main drivers of the war.
> > > >
> > > > >BH.........It is a dis-appointment that more Muslum
> > > > >countries didn't sign on this time.  Saudi Arabia's
> > > > >ruling family is at risk of losing power and took
> > > > the
> > > > >safe course.  Turkey had just installed a new
> > > > >government and the vote to join the effort fell
> > > > short
> > > > >by only a handfull of votes. Jordan is now run by
> > > > King
> > > > >Hussain's son as opposed to the King who was
> > > > married
> > > > >to an American during Gulf War 1 but that's just
> > > > >guesswork on my part.  Egypt?  Dunno.  It is a
> > > > >certainty that Jordan, Syria, and Turkey were
> > > > dealing
> > > > >in smuggled Iraqi oil so maybe it was just
> > > > financial
> > > > >self-interest. I will once again refer to an
> > > > article
> > > > >in the March/April issue of "Foreign Affairs" by
> > > > Ken
> > > > >Pollack that addresses that specific question in
> > > > >detail.  I'm not sure if its available on line but
> > > > if
> > > > >I ever get a scanner I'll send you a
> > > > >copy.................
> > > >
> > > > Is is not a disappoinment that more Muslim countries
> > > > didn't help us, it is a
> > > > disappoinment that NO Muslim countries or any
> > > > country in the area joined us.
> > > > You stated the reasons but did not answer the
> > > > question. If they are not
> > > > worried about the instability then why should we? I
> > > > think the answer is
> > > > "oil". My point is that oil is the main thing
> > > > driving the war.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >BH..........We have at least another year of 43 to
> > > > go.
> > > > >  I'll let his record in history speak for
> > > > >itself.......BH
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > My point here is that with out his father greasing
> > > > the way 43 would not have
> > > > a presidential record for history to judge. He would
> > > > have not gotten into
> > > > Yale, and most likely not been elected president. He
> > > > was Commander in Chief
> > > > while we kicked ass on a third rate military.
> > > >
> > > > >BH..........I agree our record of nation building
> > > > has
> > > > >met with mixed results regardless of who was
> > > > President
> > > > >at the time.  I give the nod to Dr. Rice as having
> > > > a
> > > > >better handle on this than me.........BH
> > > >
> > > > I think mixed results is giving our nation building
> > > > record too much credit.
> > > > What are the success stories? I will admit I am not
> > > > an expert in this area
> > > > (or any other) but when I look back in modern times
> > > > it seems we have had no
> > > > success what so ever.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >BH.............Their unit supports everyone in that
> > > > >area out of Germany.  The primary thrust of their
> > > > >mission was to Afghanastan but they made trips to
> > > > the
> > > > >Gulf area as well.  Those boys, fighter pilots,
> > > > >transports, etc. all drink and eat together and
> > > > they
> > > > >share a lot of info with each other.  They don't
> > > > share
> > > > >  much with me and I respect them for that.  I
> > > > think
> > > > >what they were referring to was that the "no fly
> > > > zone"
> > > > >kept Saddam from launching another gas attack via
> > > > >airborne equipment like he did on the Kurds.  There
> > > > >has been a lot of recon efforts in that area for a
> > > > >long time and the units are all dependent on each
> > > > >other so even though stuff is supposed to be "hush,
> > > > >hush" they figure out what the others are doing.
> > > > >Still, they keep it from me, even when they're
> > > > >drunk.............BH
> > > >
> > > > I buy that but if our recon was so good how come we
> > > > don't have a clue as to
> > > > the location of a single WMD? I know it is a big
> > > > country and they have had
> > > > years to hide the stuff. Heck it is probably all in
> > > > Syria by now.
> > > >
> > > > Brad I guess in a nut shell I feel that Oil is the
> > > > thing driving the war and
> > > > it seems no one wants to admit it. I don't think we
> > > > would have lifted a
> > > > finger to help Kuwait if oil wasn't involved. Our
> > > > economy runs on oil. Bin
> > > > laden sites US meddling in the Middle East as the
> > > > reason for 911. We
> > > > wouldn't give a shit about the middle east if they
> > > > had no oil. I say call a
> > > > spade a spade. There are a bucnh worse things going
> > > > on through out various
> > > > African nations and we don't care, they have no oil.
> > > >
> > > > As long as we rely on foreign oil we will always be
> > > > at the mercy of
> > > > countries that seem to hate our guts. Our solution
> > > > seems to be to help prop
> > > > up on regime after the next. They all eventually
> > > > topple and wind up hating
> > > > us even more.
> > > >
> > > > Wally
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection
> > > > with MSN 8.
> > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> > > http://calendar.yahoo.com
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>