[Rhodes22-list] Bill's reply Russell's upright problem

Mon Aug 9 14:32:53 EDT 2004

Ed,

I have no problem with brain storming, nor with all the suggestions you made.

Todd wrote:

 "From the websites....it seems that Hake sells a mast raising system as an
option for only $400.  Maybe Russ can make himself a "similar" system
without stealing their intellectual property.

   We wouldn't to get Bill's panties in a bunch again.  :-)"

That was what I was responding to.

The difficulty of developing reliable trailers and mast raising systems is often underestimated by people who think it's just a matter of copying someone else's idea.  You don't have to be on this list for long before you start hearing about trailer and mast raising accidents.  We don't know who designed the mast raising system Russ was using, or exactly how it failed.  All we know is that there was a miscalculation.

If I were Russ I wouldn't want to be the first one to use a mast raising system developed from a brainstorming session by a group of boat owners who have never even seen Russ's boat.  A drink holder, maybe.  A mast raising system, No!

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: ed kroposki 
To: 'The Rhodes 22 mail list' 
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Bill's reply Russell's upright problem

Bill:

     Russ has a problem, and I put it to the list for suggestions as food
for thought.  I guess that you have not noticed that Todd is technically
astute.  More importantly, he is very knowledgeable in making things go up
and down.  His reply was on point and relevant.  The message was to get
ideas that explored the problem.  

     You threw the problem back to Stan without any positive or creative
solutions offered.  In problem solving there is the concept of 'brain
storming' wherein a problem is presented and any solution is accepted as a
maybe.  The intent here was to generate ideas, food for thought on Russ's
problem.  Maybe somebody knows of or saw a potential solution in another
situation and that was all that was asked.

     Recently we learned that you write with a silver tipped pen.  Maybe you
could get with Russ and get all the details of the problem he encountered.
Then Bill Effros the writer, professionally describe the problem so that
everybody fully understands and can offer solutions.  If there is already
the correct and safe solution available, then Russ can order one. 

:-)

Ed K

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf of Bill Effros
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 8:06 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Russell's upright problem

Todd,

I've used both the Mac system and the R-22 system, and the R-22 system is
better.  The factor is the intellectual property aspect.

There is no trick to raising masts when nothing goes wrong.  A number of
people on the list have advocated a simple wooden A-Frame alternative
costing a fraction of the Mac crane pole.  Sooner or later these people
always have incidents like what Russ must have encountered.  Something goes
wrong.  Someone could have been, or was, hurt.

Stan is an engineer.  Russ isn't.  You want Stan to solve Russ's problem,
and then for Russ, instead of paying Stan, to have someone else simply copy
Stan's solution.  Once Stan understands that people have no intention of
paying him for his work, he's going to stop doing that work for those
people.  Lucky for us, Stan has been slow to catch on.  He's an engineer, he
likes to solve problems.

Last night on 60 Minutes there was a rerun about the Chinese stealing
American intellectual property with Americans whining about the cost of this
theft.  It was funny to hear the golf club guys talk about how similar the
$275 Chinese knock-off looked and played compared to the $3,000 original.
It was less funny to learn that 1000s of Chinese babies had died from milk
formula that looked like the American product, but contained no nutrients.
Or that 1000s of adults had died from taking Chinese medicines that had no
active ingredients.

People have come on this list to rip Stan's mast raising system for being
dangerous and poorly made only to discover that the inexpensive system they
were using was not Stan's at all.

This concept is hard to explain, and the ramifications of this kind of
stealing are difficult to absorb.  I previously explained how I, as a
younger man, figured out how to rip off the telephone company, and saw
nothing wrong about it at the time.  It's something many of us have done.  

But if people who know better don't challenge this notion whenever it comes
up, it weakens us all as a nation. 

Of course, you can always just hit the delete key, but apparently you don't.

And for that I thank you,

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Todd Tavares 

To: The Rhodes 22 mail list 

Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 1:19 AM

Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Russell's upright problem

   Ed,

  I hate to bring up the name MacGregor, but they have a system that uses a
crane pole with a brake winch on top, very much like the GB crane pole.  It
appears (I have not seen the system up close) to pivot on a horizontal bolt
on extended side tangs on the mast base bracket.  An alternative to the
block mounted on the cabin top.  The   best part is that Mac sells the crane
pole with winch for $98.00

 What's wrong with an R22 system mounted on the S-26?  Maybe a beefier and
longer crane pole would help?   Although the mast is a few taller, it can't
weigh much than a R22 with the IMF....can it???

 From the websites....it seems that Hake sells a mast raising system as an
option for only $400.  Maybe Russ can make himself a "similar" system
without stealing their intellectual property.

   We wouldn't to get Bill's panties in a bunch again.  :-)

   Can Russ tell us what are the difficulties in adapting the GB Rhodes 22
system to the S-26?  Russ?

   Todd

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: "ed kroposki"

   Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 21:24:03 -0400

   To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"

   Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Russell's upright problem

Russ:

Ask Stan if any other boat uses an on boat hoist or do they all use trailer
mounted systems, al la Com Pac. Let us see, how about a hot air balloon with
remote control?  Maybe a bigger boat with a counter weighted crane.

How many side stays does the boat have? Six? That is what makes the R22
work. Maybe you need to add some Stays or change the locations, at least
while raising and lower the mast.

Where is Roger when you need mechanical advantage? Dual Gin poles?
Bilateral or dual pulling lines? That is a single winch with two four-foot
arms that pull from the outside? Single winch with two arms with turning
blocks to get balanced dual outside pull? Two horizontal gin poles?

Jerry, Slim and Todd we need to get Russell an on-boat mast crane. Throw
some wood on the fire. Stan has boats to make; we need to give the maestro a
workable idea.

Ed K

-----Original Message-----

From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org

[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Russell

   Miller

Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 6:55 PM

To: The Rhodes 22 mail list

Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Introduction---recycled in near future

Boat is in a slip, no trailer yet but the hoist system is ala R22, butdesign
does not exactly work with the 26. Elton & Stan are aware and are working
the problem, alaw, a wolution.

Russ

----- Original Message -----

From: "ed kroposki"

 Russell:

 Obviously, it is not a Stan design on the mast crane. Is it on the boat or
trailer?

 So you are going to be without any boat at Hilton Head?

Unfortunately, Lake Hartwell is about 5 hours away. It has been interesting
this year.

 There are supposed to be other R22's on the lake. I am out at least once a
week, often mor e lately, never seen them. The last few weeks, the most
sailboats I see are 4 or 5.

 If I drag my boat to the sea, I want to go near Georgetown. Do you know
anything about that area?

 Ed K

 Greenville, SC, USA

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