[Rhodes22-list]Garolite or wetted porous wood?

Fri Dec 10 04:59:21 EST 2004

Lou,

OK, let's think about what wood is.  Wood is a composite of cellulose fibers
stuck together with lignin "glue".  You can wet out the cellulose wood
fibers with epoxy & end up with a composite structure that is relatively
more water resistant.  However, in an abrasive wear situation with water
immersion, like you seem to have in your centerboard well, are you going to
trust that the epoxy coating is going to provide long-term waterproofing for
the wood?  Yes, yes, I know that people build epoxy cedar strip canoes all
the time & they seem to work just fine.  But, unless you can assure the
epoxy resin is going to be infused all thru the wood fibers, I wouldn't
trust this MOC in an underwater situation with abrasive wear.  The only way
I know to assure that kind of epoxy infusion would be to apply the epoxy to
the wood in a high pressure autoclave to drive the liquid resin deep into
the wood microstructure.  Simply wetting out the wood with epoxy won't get
to the same state.

In contrast, G-10 uses glass fibers and the epoxy resin is uniformly
distributed throughout the composite microstructure.  Now, even in the
presence of abrasive wear, water is not going to penetrate into the G-10
composite structure.  Even if water did penetrate, the glass fibers are not
going to biodegrade over time like the cellulose fibers in wood.

The bottom line is, wood strips coated with epoxy will probably be
sufficiently stiff to serve in this repair application.  Long term
durability will be questionable.  A repair made with G-10 will be about as
bulletproof as I know how to make it, given your situation and available
resources.

It's your boat so you get to make the call.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilbrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lou Rosenberg" <steadilsr at verizon.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Garolite or wetted porous wood?

> Roger
>   back to the plastic for lining btw the cement and the epoxy I will be
> putting over it:
>   I want to consider just preparing a few pieces of thin wood, wetted
> out with epoxy and cured a day before inserting next to the cement
> instead of ordering the G 10 garolite.   This thin barrier is really
> just a way to key the epoxy layer(s) for the final wall of the trunk so
> why couldnt just a light crate type porous wood work here after being
> wetted out on both sides?
>   Just trying to maximize my time here, but be honest if you think I
> would be wasting my time with a cheap quick fix with this kind of wood
> instead of waiting..  I am also near an industrial plastics place in
> Manhattan and wil ask about the special plastic that can key onto epoxy
> and keep its water protection for long periods of time.
>    Lou
>
> On Thursday, December 9, 2004, at 08:10 PM, Roger Pihlaja wrote:
>
> > Lou,
> >
> > If the acetone (2-propanone) evaporates too quickly; then, you can use
> > methyl
> > ethyl ketone (MEK) (2-butanone) as a thinning solvent.  The boiling
> > point of
> > acetone is 56.2 deg C vs. 79.6 deg C for MEK.  So, MEK will evaporate
> > much
> > more slowly than acetone.  However, be careful because MEK is
> > considerably
> > more toxic than acetone.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's Recommended MOC
> >
> >
> >>> Todd, Roger:
> >>
> >>
> >> Roger,
> >> One of  My first experiment w WS epoxies I tried using acetone to
> >> lower viscosity and it does evap very quickly and of course creates
> >> more flammable fumes besides the epoxy fumes.
> >> thanks for that option.
> >>   L
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Funny you should ask.  I once had to do a project that involved spray
> >>> coating an epoxy binder into a delicate nonwoven C-fiber batting.
> >>> The
> >>> unthickened epoxy was too viscous to atomize in a 2-fluid spray
> >>> nozzle.
> >>> However, it turns out that uncured West system epoxy & catalysts
> >>> (They
> > are
> >>> really epoxy products made by the Dow Chemical Co. - shhh, don't tell
> >>> anyone!) are completely soluble in ketones like acetone or methyl
> >>> ethyl
> >>> ketone (MEK).  If Lou is not getting good penetration into the
> >>> cement;
> > then,
> >>> he can thin out the uncured epoxy with acetone in practically any
> > proportion
> >>> he needs to get the viscosity low enough.  Warning, the acetone will
> >>> be
> >>> evaporating during and after application & will create a REALLY
> >>> flammable
> >>> vapor in the vicinity of the cement.  So, good ventillation will be
> >>> very
> >>> critical in this operation.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
> >>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:10 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's Recommended
> >>> MOC
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>  Roger,
> >>>>
> >>>>    Is there a way to thin a small amount of epoxy to brush onto the
> > exposed
> >>> cement first?
> >>>>
> >>>>  Todd
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>  ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>  From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> >>>>  To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>  Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's Recommended
> > MOC
> >>>>  Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:59:18 -0500
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steve,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> MOC property = Material Of Construction property
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What I was refering to was to trowel in uncured 3M 5200
> >>>>> polyurethane
> >>>>> adhesive directly over the cement.  The 3M 5200 would be the patch
> > in
> >>> this
> >>>>> case.  Even cured, this material is no where near stiff enough for
> > this
> >>>>> application.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I wouldn't use 3M 5200 to attach some other patch material to the
> > cement
> >>>>> either.  3M 5200 is too viscous to properly soak into the cement to
> >>> develop
> >>>>> a strong bond with it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I suggested using untickened epoxy as a tie layer with the cement.
> > The
> >>> low
> >>>>> viscosity epoxy will soak into the porosity in the cement, creating
> > a
> >>> deep
> >>>>> mechanical & chemical bond with the cement.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> >>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 3:43 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's Recommended
> > MOC
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger
> >>>>>> 3-M 5200 polyurethane caulk to
> >>>>>>> build up the patch as some
> >>>>>>> others have suggested.  Polyurethane caulk has the
> >>>>>>> wrong MOC properties for
> >>>>>>> this application.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't get what you mean here.  I wasn't talking
> >>>>>> about building up a patch with 3M 5200; 3M 5200 is the
> >>>>>> patch if you when that route.  Also, what are you
> >>>>>> talking about when you say MOC properties?
> >>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lou,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would use prefabricated G-10 sheets.  G-10 is a
> >>>>>>> composite material made
> >>>>>>> from oriented glass fiber & epoxy and it is very
> >>>>>>> stiff.  You will be able to
> >>>>>>> cut it with a saber saw to an exact fit into
> >>>>>>> whatever size & shape the hole
> >>>>>>> in your centerboard well ends up being.  You can
> >>>>>>> order G-10 in panels as
> >>>>>>> small as 12 inch X 12 inch up to as large as 36 inch
> >>>>>>> X 48 inch in any
> >>>>>>> thickness ranging from 1/32 inch to 2 inch.  Use an
> >>>>>>> unthickened epoxy tie
> >>>>>>> layer soaked into the cement and also on the cement
> >>>>>>> side of the G-10 patch.
> >>>>>>> Then, I would use a fiberglass tape laminated with
> >>>>>>> epoxy to bridge the
> >>>>>>> remaining gap between the G-10 patch and the old
> >>>>>>> centerboard well.  The
> >>>>>>> centerboard well side of the G-10 patch will still
> >>>>>>> need the final coat of
> >>>>>>> epoxy loaded up with West 422 Barrier Additive.
> >>>>>>> G-10 sheets can be ordered
> >>>>>>> from:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> McMaster-Carr Supply Company
> >>>>>>> 473 Ridge Rd.
> >>>>>>> Dayton, NJ  08810-0317
> >>>>>>> 732-329-3200 (Sales)
> >>>>>>> www.mcmaster.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tell them you want "Grade G-10/FR4 Garolite" in
> >>>>>>> whatever sheet size &
> >>>>>>> thickness you need.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Note, do not use 3-M 5200 polyurethane caulk to
> >>>>>>> build up the patch as some
> >>>>>>> others have suggested.  Polyurethane caulk has the
> >>>>>>> wrong MOC properties for
> >>>>>>> this application.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu>
> >>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> >>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:22 AM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk surgery
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Roger,
> >>>>>>>>    I purchase a small cutting disc for my dremel
> >>>>>>> yesterday and hope to
> >>>>>>>> begin the work on Sun.
> >>>>>>>>    My plan is to:
> >>>>>>>>     Remove the cement which is causing the bulge,
> >>>>>>> then I will have to
> >>>>>>>> insert a  thin plastic or metal piece to cover the
> >>>>>>> cement as the
> >>>>>>>> epoxy will not bond directly to the cement
> >>>>>>> effectively.
> >>>>>>>>   I will sand the thin plastic down for good
> >>>>>>> adherance  quality and
> >>>>>>>> hope to just fit it under snugly to the
> >>>>>>> surrounding trunk.
> >>>>>>>>   any comments/ suggestions??
> >>>>>>>>   Lou
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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