[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
Steve
rhodes2282 at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 13 07:57:22 EST 2004
Excellent Jim, Rum is good:-)
Steve
--- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
>
> I agree intrinsically with your reasoning,
> however, at the federal
> level there are things called lobbies which are
> working to limit what
> you can and can't do, and that includes what sort
> of engine you can
> use. I also own and operate 2 strokes, think
> they're far superior to 4
> strokes in terms of simplicity and power
> (opinion), but the fact
> remains....
> We all live and operate on a variety of waters,
> and here the Laguna
> Madre, is a large (hundreds of square miles),
> shallow and
> extraordinarily sensitive body of water, perfect
> for environmentalists
> to prove their point. And the four stroke is
> their holy grail.Yes, it
> would make more sense to simply designate where a
> certain engine type
> might be required, but sadly, and according to
> most industry
> individuals that I know, such will probably not
> be the case.
> Although, as I mentioned I am a marine biologist,
> I am not a radical
> environmentalist by any means, and strive to see
> the common sense in
> things (I think most sailors do). After more than
> 20 years in this
> bidness, it just seems that the handwriting is on
> the wall.
> BTW, i don't throw my money away....good rum(flor
> de cana) is
> expensive ....
> Cheers,
> jwhite
> At 07:40 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>
> Jim
> It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet
> standards; how
> can you say they will become a thing of the
> past? I
> don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has
> brought
> one. Their heavy and most folks can work on
> them
> themselfs. When you are out on the water &
> your motor
> goes out; being able to work on it yourself is
> more
> important than polluting the air and/or water.
> Besides, it is a well know fact that boat
> motors are
> not the big factor that pollute water. That
> like
> saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
> people. Everyone know that being FAT is the #1
> health
> problem. 2 stroke will not be done away with
> except
> on small bodies of water (that if the facts
> were known
> are poluted by things other that oil) &
> Calaforia
> (where all the crazy enviromentists live). The
> reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are
> that they
> get all the repair business. Why fall into
> that game.
> If you want to throw away your money; give it
> to me;
> I'll make good use of it and buy some
> Bourbon:-)
> Steve
> --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> >
> > The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that
> no only
> > in sailors circles,
> > but motorboat circles and generates
> spirited and
> > lively debate- it's
> > akin to arguing religion or politics. As a
> former
> > mechanic turned
> > biologist (marine), I work hand in hand
> with
> > outboards, and repair
> > shops at our facility each day. We
> probably log
> > more water time than
> > the average individual (I would guess).
> Here are
> > some of the things
> > that I have become aware of over the past
> several
> > years:
> > 1. Two stroke engines will very well soon
> be a
> > thing of the past.
> > Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> emissions
> > in the water, as
> > well as the air will cause the death of
> the
> > 2-stroke. Common sense
> > then tells us that it will become
> increasingly
> > difficult to obtain
> > parts for those out of manufacture
> engines. Yes
> > all engines pollute,
> > and modern two strokes pollute much less
> than
> > older ones. There are
> > real fears out there like folks who mix
> their oil
> > in the field (i.e.
> > in the parking lot or out on the water,
> and spill
> > directly, or older 2
> > strokes that mix into the gas tank by
> human
> > addition of the oil,
> > running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> > pots").....these are all well
> > founded fears that the regulators & and
> > environmentalists (especially)
> > justify in pushing out the good ol' 2
> stroke
> > 2. Four stroke engines are inherently
> heavier
> > than two strokes to a
> > certain point in horsepower rating (about
> 90 or
> > so), at which time the
> > weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a
> great
> > deal of difference to
> > the small engine/small boat owner,
> especially
> > ones like
> > us....Manufacturers are working on cutting
> the
> > weight of those smaller
> > engines though, and the gap is closing
> there.
> > 3. Two stroke engines by virtue of
> operation have
> > a higher low end
> > torque which can be useful if you're
> powering a
> > boat that needs to
> > "get out of the hole" quickly....usually
> doesn't
> > apply to sailcraft.
> > However newer 4 strokes are quickly
> closing that
> > gap also.
> > 4. According to our shops, four stroke
> engines
> > have fewer problems,
> > and see far less down time and many of our
> former
> > two stroke engine
> > fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> > especially sailboat owners are
> > now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact
> as a
> > major selling point.
> > However, when a four stroke breaks, it can
> be a
> > more costly repair
> > than a comparable two stroke, but again,
> with
> > design changes in both
> > engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> > In any event, our facility has now plunged
> into
> > the 4 stroke world
> > along with the tide of others. BTW I have
> a 2002
> > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > auxiliary (notice the previous word) power
> for my
> > newly acquired
> > Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> > diatribe/dissertation...
> > JDWHITE
> > At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> > Wally
> > I can't remember where I read the
> article about
> > 2
> > strokes meeting standards; one of my
> sail mag
> > probably. But I would think you are
> right. If
> > the
> > smaller motors don't already; its just a
> matter
> > of
> > time.
> > Steve
> > --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > I had heard that the new cleaner 2
> strokes
> > were only
> > > coming out in the
> > > larger motors. Is this true? I got to
> think
> > that the
> > > technolgy will trickly
> > > down to the smaller motors as well but
> you
> > never
> > > know.....
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Kroposki"
> <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The
> Rhodes 22
> > mail
> > > list
> > > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2
> cycle vs 4
> > cycle
> > > smoke
> > > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Steve,
> > > > The issue is that new 2 cycle
> engines
> > are not
> > > smoke pots. They
> > > >more than comply with the current
> > environmental
> > > standards and they will
> > > >comply with the new impending
> standards.
> > > > As for using oil, all gas motors
> use
> > oil and some
> > > of that
> > > >lubricating oil is combusted. The
> issue is
> > how
> > > much of that oil and gas
> > > >is wasted directly into the
> environment.
> > The old 2
> > > cycle engines did
> > > >not care. However, the EPA standards
> got
> > the
> > > manufacturers attention
> > > >and the new engines do not
> statistically
> > pollute
> > > the environment more
> > > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
> > pollutants.
> > > All gas engines
> > > >pollute. It is a matter of degree.
> When
> > that
> > > degree is evaluated
> > > >statistically is the difference
> significant?
> > > Simply put, will the
> > > >impact difference between the two
> types of
> > motors
> > > on the environment
> > > >really matter? A few years ago the
> answer
> > was yes,
> > > however, with design
> > > >changes the effects are no longer
> > statistically
> > > significant. They both
> > > >pollute.
> > > >
> > > >
> Ed K
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >
> >
> >[[1][1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Steve
> > > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004
> 9:01 AM
> > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle
> vs 4
> > cycle
> > > >
> > > >I thought the reason they came out
> with 4
> > strocks
> > > were
> > > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-)
> You know,
> > you
> > > have
> > > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
> > non-smoking
> > > >part. You can now have a smoking
> part of a
> > lake; &
> > > a
> > > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more
> folks
> > that go
> > > 4
> > > >stoke; that means the more folks that
> can go
> > 2
> > > stoke.
> > > >And the enviroment only get poluted
> the same
> > amount
> > > >that we have always done for
> years:-)Beside,
> > we
> > > need a
> > > >little more Globle warming. Temps
> here are
> > in the
> > > >40s. That evendent that we need to
> polute
> > quite a
> > > bit
> > > >more. Arkansas need to be warm up so
> are
> > winter
> > > stay
> > > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you
> thinking,
> > > Michael:-)
> > > >Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Michael Meltzer
> <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > Well lets try a differ tack for
> the
> > sessions
> > > version
> > > > > of the question, "So how much harm
> are
> > you
> > > willing
> > > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
> > miscarry,
> > > children
> > > > > born with birth defects, men going
> > impememnt,
> > > etc..
> > > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat
> your wife
> > to day
> > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > MJM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Kroposki"
> <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> 9:12
> > AM
> > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle
> vs 4
> > cycle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > > Here we go again. I know better
> than
> > question
> > > the
> > > > > technical
> > > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
> > eloquent
> > > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by
> myself.
> > Roger
> > > forgets
> > > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > > two robust sons to help. It is
> the old
> > > problem of
> > > > > being able to see a
> > > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From:
> > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >
> >
> [[2][2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> 2004 7:52
> > AM
> > > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> Yamaha 9.9
> > Water
> > > Pump
> > > > > Replacement
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jay,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The usual problem with the water
> pump
> > > impellors on
> > > > > small outboards is
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > they are made from some sort of
> rubber.
> > It's
> > > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > > design.
> > > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the
> rubber
> > vanes
> > > on
> > > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > pump housing, thus making the
> pump
> > positive
> > > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > > At
> > > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes
> deflect
> > out of
> > > the
> > > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > > boundary layer of water on the
> wetted
> > surface
> > > of
> > > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > > At
> > > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> experience
> > any
> > > wear
> > > > > because they are not
> > > > > > touching the pump housing. This
> design
> > makes
> > > the
> > > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > > automatically switching from
> positive
> > > displacement
> > > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > > mode
> > > > > > for delivering the high volume
> of
> > cooling
> > > water
> > > > > required by high speed
> > > > > > operation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what goes wrong? Well, if
> the water
> > pump
> > > ever
> > > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > > impellor will lose the
> lubrication &
> > cooling
> > > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> > quickly, like
> > > in a
> > > > > few seconds!
> > > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > > oil & gasoline in the water
> (like the
> > oil film
> > > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > > outboards) will gradually break
> down
> > the
> > > rubber
> > > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > > impellor; leading to
> embrittlement,
> > cracking,
> > > and
> > > > > failure. This is
> > > > > > probably
> > > > > > the single biggest long-term
> failure
> > > mechanism.
> > > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years
> due to
> > this
> > > cause
> > > > > alone. There is also
> > > > > > another common failure mechanism
> > related to
> > > > > storage. When the lower leg
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > lifted free of the water, the
> entire
> > cooling
> > > > > system drains down. This
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> > self-priming at
> > > > > start-up. Even fresh
> > > > > > water &
> > > > > > especially ocean water, has a
> certain
> > amount
> > > of
> > > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > it. When the cooling system
> drains
> > down, a
> > > small
> > > > > amount of water is
> > > > > > left
> > > > > > trapped in between the ends of
> the
> > vanes on
> > > the
> > > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > aluminum pump housing. When
> this water
> > > eventually
> > > > > evaporates in
> > > > > > storage,
> > > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded
> by
> > salt
> > > crystals
> > > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > > Depending upon how strong this
> bond is,
> > the
> > > rubber
> > > > > impellor can be
> > > > > > damaged
> > > > > > the next time the engine is
> started
> > when the
> > > vanes
> > > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > salt crystals. In addition, for
> the
> > 1st few
> > > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they
> form a
> > > relatively
> > > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > > water pump housing that the
> rubber
> > vanes have
> > > to
> > > > > run over on every
> > > > > > revolution. Finally, there can
> be
> > corrosion
> > > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > > crystals
> > > > > > in long-term contact with the
> aluminum
> > pump
> > > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > > In
> > > > > > salt water, it's considered good
> > practice to
> > > fresh
> > > > > water flush the
> > > > > > cooling
> > > > > > system after every use &
> certainly
> > before
> > > > > long-term storage. After
> > > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't
> hurt to
> > fresh
> > > water
> > > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > > system
> > > > > > prior to start-up. As part of
> my
> > outboard
> > > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > > flush
> > > > > > propylene gylcol potable
> antifreeze (RV
> > "red
> > > pop")
> > > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > > systems
> > > > > > of my outboards. propylene
> glycol will
> > > prevent
> > > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > > crystals in-between the vanes
> and the
> > water
> > > pump
> > > > > housing. During the
> > > > > > boating season, on every
> start-up, I
> > gently
> > > pull
> > > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > pull cord prior to starting it
> to break
> > the
> > > water
> > > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > > give
> > > > > > the engine several minutes of
> low speed
> > > warm-up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The result, the only water pump
> I've
> > ever had
> > > fail
> > > > > on any of my
> > > > > > outboards in
> > > > > > 25+ years of boating was the
> time when
> > my
> > > younger
> > > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> > outboard up on
> > > the
> > > > > beach with the engine
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > full throttle. The water pump
> impellor
> > was
> > > burnt
> > > > > to a crisp!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> 2004 2:25
> > AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> Yamaha 9.9
> > Water
> > > Pump
> > > > > Replacement
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > sounds like overkill and make
> work,
> > maybe
> > > the
> > > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are
> only
> > putting
> > > 25-50
> > > > > hours on
> > > > > > > the motor every year, one
> thing you
> > do have
> > > to
> > > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages,
> clean
> > the pee
> > > tub
> > > > > yearly), is
> > > > > > > one of the few parts on the
> engine
> > that is
> > > not
> > > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > it and they need to be replace
> every
> > two
> > > years,
> > > > > luckily it
> > > > > > > is also a simple job that you
> can do
> > > yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > MJM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10,
> 2004
> > 11:25 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list]
> Yamaha 9.9
> > Water
> > > Pump
> > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> > recommends
> > > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > > assembly
> > > > > > > > every year. The motor is
> 2001 with
> > this
> > > the
> > > > > first year in service.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> > occasionally
> > > flush
> > > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > > > > month), and end of season
> run it in
> > a
> > > barrel
> > > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off
> deposits,
> > etc.).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anybody offer best
> suggestions on
> > > proceeding
> > > > > with this replacement
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > > > > Thanks, Jay
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Use
> Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
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> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
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> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> [3]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > 2.
> [4]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > 3. [5]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 4. [6]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 5. [7]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 6. [8]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 7. [9]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 8. [10]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > 9. [11]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 10. [12]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 11.
> [13]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > 12. [14]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 13. [15]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > 14. [16]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> [17]www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> online.
> [18]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> [19]www.rhodes22.org/list
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> 2. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> 3. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> 4. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> 5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 8. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 10. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> 11. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 13. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> 14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 15. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> 16. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 17. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 18. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> 19. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
www.rhodes22.org/list
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