[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
Jim Connolly
jbconnolly at comcast.net
Mon Feb 16 20:21:56 EST 2004
Also, on my old Grady White I had a Yamaha 250 v-6 2- stroke. Kicker was a
Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke for the very reason Russ Miller said. Advantage of
mixing the two types of engine (in this case) was the 250 had automatic oil
mixing. Fuel in tanks was not mixed, so the 9.9 ran off the same fuel tanks
as the 250.
FWIW
Jim Connolly
s/v Inisheer
1985 recycled 2003
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Russell Miller
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 6:22 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
They need the smaller motor for troling, etc. The big one does not throttle
down enough.
Russ
s/v Bulldog
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> One thing that I would add. When you go to buy a new motor; pop off
> the cover and ask yourself - What would I do if it stop working far
> from shore? Make you think!!! FYI- Has everyone seen these Big Bass
> Boats with those big 4 stroke motor - Have you notice they all are
> carrying nowadays a 9.9 or 25 hp 2 stroke
> Kicker:-) Wonder why???????????????
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Jim
> > It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet standards; how can you say
> > they will become a thing of the past? I don't know anyone that like
> > a 4 stroke who has brought one. Their heavy and most folks can work
> > on them themselfs. When you are out on the water & your motor goes
> > out; being able to work on it yourself is more important than
> > polluting the air and/or water.
> > Besides, it is a well know fact that boat motors are not the big
> > factor that pollute water. That like saying that smoking is the #1
> > health problem of people. Everyone know that being FAT is the #1
> > health problem. 2 stroke will not be done away with except on small
> > bodies of water (that if the facts were known are poluted by things
> > other that oil) & Calaforia (where all the crazy enviromentists
> > live). The reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are that they
> > get all the repair business. Why fall into that game.
> > If you want to throw away your money; give it to me; I'll make good
> > use of it and buy some Bourbon:-) Steve
> >
> >
> > --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no
> > only
> > > in sailors circles,
> > > but motorboat circles and generates spirited
> > and
> > > lively debate- it's
> > > akin to arguing religion or politics. As a
> > former
> > > mechanic turned
> > > biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with outboards, and
> > > repair
> > > shops at our facility each day. We probably log more water time
> > > than
> > > the average individual (I would guess). Here
> > are
> > > some of the things
> > > that I have become aware of over the past
> > several
> > > years:
> > > 1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a thing of the
> > > past.
> > > Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> > emissions
> > > in the water, as
> > > well as the air will cause the death of the 2-stroke. Common
> > > sense
> > > then tells us that it will become increasingly difficult to
> > > obtain
> > > parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes all engines
> > > pollute,
> > > and modern two strokes pollute much less than older ones. There
> > > are
> > > real fears out there like folks who mix their
> > oil
> > > in the field (i.e.
> > > in the parking lot or out on the water, and
> > spill
> > > directly, or older 2
> > > strokes that mix into the gas tank by human addition of the
> > > oil,
> > > running around rich and smokey ("smoke pots").....these are all
> > > well
> > > founded fears that the regulators & and environmentalists
> > > (especially)
> > > justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
> > > 2. Four stroke engines are inherently heavier than two strokes
> > > to a
> > > certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or so), at which
> > > time the
> > > weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great deal of
> > > difference to
> > > the small engine/small boat owner, especially ones like
> > > us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the weight of those
> > > smaller
> > > engines though, and the gap is closing there.
> > > 3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation
> > have
> > > a higher low end
> > > torque which can be useful if you're powering a boat that needs
> > > to
> > > "get out of the hole" quickly....usually
> > doesn't
> > > apply to sailcraft.
> > > However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing
> > that
> > > gap also.
> > > 4. According to our shops, four stroke engines have fewer
> > > problems,
> > > and see far less down time and many of our
> > former
> > > two stroke engine
> > > fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and especially sailboat
> > > owners are
> > > now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a major selling
> > > point.
> > > However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a more costly
> > > repair
> > > than a comparable two stroke, but again, with design changes in
> > > both
> > > engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> > > In any event, our facility has now plunged into the 4 stroke
> > > world
> > > along with the tide of others. BTW I have a
> > 2002
> > > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > > auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for
> > my
> > > newly acquired
> > > Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > > Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy diatribe/dissertation...
> > > JDWHITE
> > > At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> > >
> > > Wally
> > > I can't remember where I read the article
> > about
> > > 2
> > > strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
> > > probably. But I would think you are right.
> > If
> > > the
> > > smaller motors don't already; its just a
> > matter
> > > of
> > > time.
> > > Steve
> > > --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes were only
> > > > coming out in the
> > > > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think that the
> > > > technolgy will trickly
> > > > down to the smaller motors as well but you never
> > > > know.....
> > > >
> > > > Wally
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes
> > 22
> > > mail
> > > > list
> > > > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs
> > 4
> > > cycle
> > > > smoke
> > > > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > >Steve,
> > > > > The issue is that new 2 cycle engines
> > > are not
> > > > smoke pots. They
> > > > >more than comply with the current environmental
> > > > standards and they will
> > > > >comply with the new impending standards.
> > > > > As for using oil, all gas motors use
> > > oil and some
> > > > of that
> > > > >lubricating oil is combusted. The issue
> > is
> > > how
> > > > much of that oil and gas
> > > > >is wasted directly into the environment.
> > > The old 2
> > > > cycle engines did
> > > > >not care. However, the EPA standards got the
> > > > manufacturers attention
> > > > >and the new engines do not statistically pollute
> > > > the environment more
> > > > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew pollutants.
> > > > All gas engines
> > > > >pollute. It is a matter of degree. When that
> > > > degree is evaluated
> > > > >statistically is the difference
> > significant?
> > > > Simply put, will the
> > > > >impact difference between the two types of motors
> > > > on the environment
> > > > >really matter? A few years ago the answer was yes,
> > > > however, with design
> > > > >changes the effects are no longer statistically
> > > > significant. They both
> > > > >pollute.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed
> > K
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > >
> > > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Steve
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
> > > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> > > > >
> > > > >I thought the reason they came out with 4 strocks
> > > > were
> > > > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You
> > know,
> > > you
> > > > have
> > > > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a non-smoking
> > > > >part. You can now have a smoking part of
> > a
> > > lake; &
> > > > a
> > > > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks that go
> > > > 4
> > > > >stoke; that means the more folks that can
> > go
> > > 2
> > > > stoke.
> > > > >And the enviroment only get poluted the
> > same
> > > amount
> > > > >that we have always done for
> > years:-)Beside,
> > > we
> > > > need a
> > > > >little more Globle warming. Temps here
> > are
> > > in the
> > > > >40s. That evendent that we need to polute quite a
> > > > bit
> > > > >more. Arkansas need to be warm up so are winter
> > > > stay
> > > > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
> > > > Michael:-)
> > > > >Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- Michael Meltzer
> > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the sessions
> > > > version
> > > > > > of the question, "So how much harm are you
> > > > willing
> > > > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman miscarry,
> > > > children
> > > > > > born with birth defects, men going impememnt,
> > > > etc..
> > > > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your
> > wife
> > > to day
> > > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MJM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > > > Here we go again. I know better than question
> > > > the
> > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's eloquent
> > > > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.
> > > Roger
> > > > forgets
> > > > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > > > two robust sons to help. It is the
> > old
> > > > problem of
> > > > > > being able to see a
> > > > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From:
> > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > >
> > > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> > 7:52
> > > AM
> > > > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> > 9.9
> > > Water
> > > > Pump
> > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jay,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
> > > > impellors on
> > > > > > small outboards is
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > they are made from some sort of
> > rubber.
> > > It's
> > > > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > > > design.
> > > > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the
> > rubber
> > > vanes
> > > > on
> > > > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > > > water
> > > > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump
> > > positive
> > > > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > > > At
> > > > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect
> > > out of
> > > > the
> > > > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted
> > > surface
> > > > of
> > > > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > > > At
> > > > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> > experience
> > > any
> > > > wear
> > > > > > because they are not
> > > > > > > touching the pump housing. This
> > design
> > > makes
> > > > the
> > > > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > > > automatically switching from positive
> > > > displacement
> > > > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > > > mode
> > > > > > > for delivering the high volume of
> > > cooling
> > > > water
> > > > > > required by high speed
> > > > > > > operation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So what goes wrong? Well, if the
> > water
> > > pump
> > > > ever
> > > > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication &
> > > cooling
> > > > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> > > quickly, like
> > > > in a
> > > > > > few seconds!
> > > > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the
> > > oil film
> > > > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > > > outboards) will gradually break down
> > > the
> > > > rubber
> > > > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement,
> > > cracking,
> > > > and
> > > > > > failure. This is
> > > > > > > probably
> > > > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
> > > > mechanism.
> > > > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due
> > to
> > > this
> > > > cause
> > > > > > alone. There is also
> > > > > > > another common failure mechanism
> > > related to
> > > > > > storage. When the lower leg
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire
> > > cooling
> > > > > > system drains down. This
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> > > self-priming at
> > > > > > start-up. Even fresh
> > > > > > > water &
> > > > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain
> > > amount
> > > > of
> > > > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > it. When the cooling system drains
> > > down, a
> > > > small
> > > > > > amount of water is
> > > > > > > left
> > > > > > > trapped in between the ends of the
> > > vanes on
> > > > the
> > > > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > aluminum pump housing. When this
> > water
> > > > eventually
> > > > > > evaporates in
> > > > > > > storage,
> > > > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by
> > > salt
> > > > crystals
> > > > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond
> > is,
> > > the
> > > > rubber
> > > > > > impellor can be
> > > > > > > damaged
> > > > > > > the next time the engine is started
> > > when the
> > > > vanes
> > > > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > salt crystals. In addition, for the
> > > 1st few
> > > > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form
> > a
> > > > relatively
> > > > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > > > water pump housing that the rubber
> > > vanes have
> > > > to
> > > > > > run over on every
> > > > > > > revolution. Finally, there can be
> > > corrosion
> > > > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > > > crystals
> > > > > > > in long-term contact with the
> > aluminum
> > > pump
> > > > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > salt water, it's considered good
> > > practice to
> > > > fresh
> > > > > > water flush the
> > > > > > > cooling
> > > > > > > system after every use & certainly
> > > before
> > > > > > long-term storage. After
> > > > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt
> > to
> > > fresh
> > > > water
> > > > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > > > system
> > > > > > > prior to start-up. As part of my
> > > outboard
> > > > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > > > flush
> > > > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze
> > (RV
> > > "red
> > > > pop")
> > > > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > > > systems
> > > > > > > of my outboards. propylene glycol
> > will
> > > > prevent
> > > > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the
> > > water
> > > > pump
> > > > > > housing. During the
> > > > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I
> > > gently
> > > > pull
> > > > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to
> > break
> > > the
> > > > water
> > > > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > the engine several minutes of low
> > speed
> > > > warm-up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The result, the only water pump I've
> > > ever had
> > > > fail
> > > > > > on any of my
> > > > > > > outboards in
> > > > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time
> > when
> > > my
> > > > younger
> > > > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> > > outboard up on
> > > > the
> > > > > > beach with the engine
> > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > full throttle. The water pump
> > impellor
> > > was
> > > > burnt
> > > > > > to a crisp!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> > 2:25
> > > AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> > 9.9
> > > Water
> > > > Pump
> > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work,
> > > maybe
> > > > the
> > > > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only
> > > putting
> > > > 25-50
> > > > > > hours on
> > > > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you
> > > do have
> > > > to
> > > > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages,
> > clean
> > > the pee
> > > > tub
> > > > > > yearly), is
> > > > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine
> > > that is
> > > > not
> > > > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > it and they need to be replace every
> > > two
> > > > years,
> > > > > > luckily it
> > > > > > > > is also a simple job that you can
> > do
> > > > yourself.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MJM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004
> > > 11:25 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> > > Water
> > > > Pump
> > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> > > recommends
> > > > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > > > assembly
> > > > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001
> > with
> > > this
> > > > the
> > > > > > first year in service.
> > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> > > occasionally
> > > > flush
> > > > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > > > > > month), and end of season run it
> > in
> > > a
> > > > barrel
> > > > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits,
> > > etc.).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
> > > > proceeding
> > > > > > with this replacement
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > > > > > Thanks, Jay
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
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> > > > [10]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Keep up with high-tech trends here at
> > "Hook'd
> > > on
> > > > Technology."
> > > >
> > > [11]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > >
> > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > [12]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by
> > filing
> > > online.
> > > [13]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > [14]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > 2. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > 3. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 4. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 8. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > 9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 10. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 11.
> > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > 12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 13. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > 14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> > online.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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