[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
Russell Miller
re.miller at att.net
Tue Feb 17 18:04:13 EST 2004
Steve-
I knew that but wanted to keep it simple - KISS
Russ
s/v Bulldog
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> Actually, Russ, the Troling Motor is a separate motor
> on the front of thier boats. Its DC powered. The 9.9
> or 25 hp is for when the 4 stroke breaks donw. But
> I'm glad you asked:-)
> Steve
>
>
> --- Russell Miller <re.miller at att.net> wrote:
> > They need the smaller motor for troling, etc. The
> > big one does not throttle
> > down enough.
> >
> > Russ
> > s/v Bulldog
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:48 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> >
> >
> > > One thing that I would add. When you go to buy a
> > new
> > > motor; pop off the cover and ask yourself - What
> > would
> > > I do if it stop working far from shore? Make you
> > > think!!! FYI- Has everyone seen these Big Bass
> > Boats
> > > with those big 4 stroke motor - Have you notice
> > they
> > > all are carrying nowadays a 9.9 or 25 hp 2 stroke
> > > Kicker:-) Wonder why???????????????
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Jim
> > > > It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet standards;
> > how
> > > > can you say they will become a thing of the
> > past? I
> > > > don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has
> > > > brought
> > > > one. Their heavy and most folks can work on
> > them
> > > > themselfs. When you are out on the water & your
> > > > motor
> > > > goes out; being able to work on it yourself is
> > more
> > > > important than polluting the air and/or water.
> > > > Besides, it is a well know fact that boat motors
> > are
> > > > not the big factor that pollute water. That
> > like
> > > > saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
> > > > people. Everyone know that being FAT is the #1
> > > > health
> > > > problem. 2 stroke will not be done away with
> > except
> > > > on small bodies of water (that if the facts were
> > > > known
> > > > are poluted by things other that oil) &
> > Calaforia
> > > > (where all the crazy enviromentists live). The
> > > > reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are that
> > > > they
> > > > get all the repair business. Why fall into that
> > > > game.
> > > > If you want to throw away your money; give it
> > to
> > > > me;
> > > > I'll make good use of it and buy some Bourbon:-)
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no
> > > > only
> > > > > in sailors circles,
> > > > > but motorboat circles and generates
> > spirited
> > > > and
> > > > > lively debate- it's
> > > > > akin to arguing religion or politics. As a
> > > > former
> > > > > mechanic turned
> > > > > biologist (marine), I work hand in hand
> > with
> > > > > outboards, and repair
> > > > > shops at our facility each day. We probably
> > log
> > > > > more water time than
> > > > > the average individual (I would guess).
> > Here
> > > > are
> > > > > some of the things
> > > > > that I have become aware of over the past
> > > > several
> > > > > years:
> > > > > 1. Two stroke engines will very well soon
> > be a
> > > > > thing of the past.
> > > > > Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> > > > emissions
> > > > > in the water, as
> > > > > well as the air will cause the death of the
> > > > > 2-stroke. Common sense
> > > > > then tells us that it will become
> > increasingly
> > > > > difficult to obtain
> > > > > parts for those out of manufacture engines.
> > Yes
> > > > > all engines pollute,
> > > > > and modern two strokes pollute much less
> > than
> > > > > older ones. There are
> > > > > real fears out there like folks who mix
> > their
> > > > oil
> > > > > in the field (i.e.
> > > > > in the parking lot or out on the water, and
> > > > spill
> > > > > directly, or older 2
> > > > > strokes that mix into the gas tank by human
> > > > > addition of the oil,
> > > > > running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> > > > > pots").....these are all well
> > > > > founded fears that the regulators & and
> > > > > environmentalists (especially)
> > > > > justify in pushing out the good ol' 2
> > stroke
> > > > > 2. Four stroke engines are inherently
> > heavier
> > > > > than two strokes to a
> > > > > certain point in horsepower rating (about
> > 90 or
> > > > > so), at which time the
> > > > > weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a
> > great
> > > > > deal of difference to
> > > > > the small engine/small boat owner,
> > especially
> > > > > ones like
> > > > > us....Manufacturers are working on cutting
> > the
> > > > > weight of those smaller
> > > > > engines though, and the gap is closing
> > there.
> > > > > 3. Two stroke engines by virtue of
> > operation
> > > > have
> > > > > a higher low end
> > > > > torque which can be useful if you're
> > powering a
> > > > > boat that needs to
> > > > > "get out of the hole" quickly....usually
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > apply to sailcraft.
> > > > > However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing
> > > > that
> > > > > gap also.
> > > > > 4. According to our shops, four stroke
> > engines
> > > > > have fewer problems,
> > > > > and see far less down time and many of our
> > > > former
> > > > > two stroke engine
> > > > > fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> > > > > especially sailboat owners are
> > > > > now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact
> > as a
> > > > > major selling point.
> > > > > However, when a four stroke breaks, it can
> > be a
> > > > > more costly repair
> > > > > than a comparable two stroke, but again,
> > with
> > > > > design changes in both
> > > > > engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> > > > > In any event, our facility has now plunged
> > into
> > > > > the 4 stroke world
> > > > > along with the tide of others. BTW I have a
> > > > 2002
> > > > > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > > > > auxiliary (notice the previous word) power
> > for
> > > > my
> > > > > newly acquired
> > > > > Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > > > > Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> > > > > diatribe/dissertation...
> > > > > JDWHITE
> > > > > At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Wally
> > > > > I can't remember where I read the article
> > > > about
> > > > > 2
> > > > > strokes meeting standards; one of my sail
> > mag
> > > > > probably. But I would think you are
> > right.
> > > > If
> > > > > the
> > > > > smaller motors don't already; its just a
> > > > matter
> > > > > of
> > > > > time.
> > > > > Steve
> > > > > --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > I had heard that the new cleaner 2
> > strokes
> > > > > were only
> > > > > > coming out in the
> > > > > > larger motors. Is this true? I got to
> > think
> > > > > that the
> > > > > > technolgy will trickly
> > > > > > down to the smaller motors as well but
> > you
> > > > > never
> > > > > > know.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wally
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The
> > Rhodes
> > > > 22
> > > > > mail
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle
> > vs
> > > > 4
> > > > > cycle
> > > > > > smoke
> > > > > > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Steve,
> > > > > > > The issue is that new 2 cycle
> > engines
> > > > > are not
> > > > > > smoke pots. They
> > > > > > >more than comply with the current
> > > > > environmental
> > > > > > standards and they will
> > > > > > >comply with the new impending
> > standards.
> > > > > > > As for using oil, all gas motors
> > use
> > > > > oil and some
> > > > > > of that
> > > > > > >lubricating oil is combusted. The
> > issue
> > > > is
> > > > > how
> > > > > > much of that oil and gas
> > > > > > >is wasted directly into the
> > environment.
> > > > > The old 2
> > > > > > cycle engines did
> > > > > > >not care. However, the EPA standards
> > got
> > > > > the
> > > > > > manufacturers attention
> > > > > > >and the new engines do not
> > statistically
> > > > > pollute
> > > > > > the environment more
> > > > > > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
> > > > > pollutants.
> > > > > > All gas engines
> > > > > > >pollute. It is a matter of degree.
> > When
> > > > > that
> > > > > > degree is evaluated
> > > > > > >statistically is the difference
> > > > significant?
> > > > > > Simply put, will the
> > > > > > >impact difference between the two
> > types of
> > > > > motors
> > > > > > on the environment
> > > > > > >really matter? A few years ago the
> > answer
> > > > > was yes,
> > > > > > however, with design
> > > > > > >changes the effects are no longer
> > > > > statistically
> > > > > > significant. They both
> > > > > > >pollute.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > Ed
> > > > K
> > > > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >From:
> > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Steve
> > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01
> > AM
> > > > > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle
> > vs 4
> > > > > cycle
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I thought the reason they came out
> > with 4
> > > > > strocks
> > > > > > were
> > > > > > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You
> > > > know,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
> > > > > non-smoking
> > > > > > >part. You can now have a smoking part
> > of
> > > > a
> > > > > lake; &
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more
> > folks
> > > > > that go
> > > > > > 4
> > > > > > >stoke; that means the more folks that
> > can
> > > > go
> > > > > 2
> > > > > > stoke.
> > > > > > >And the enviroment only get poluted
> > the
> > > > same
> > > > > amount
> > > > > > >that we have always done for
> > > > years:-)Beside,
> > > > > we
> > > > > > need a
> > > > > > >little more Globle warming. Temps
> > here
> > > > are
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > >40s. That evendent that we need to
> > polute
> > > > > quite a
> > > > > > bit
> > > > > > >more. Arkansas need to be warm up so
> > are
> > > > > winter
> > > > > > stay
> > > > > > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you
> > thinking,
> > > > > > Michael:-)
> > > > > > >Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- Michael Meltzer
> > > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the
> > > > > sessions
> > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > of the question, "So how much harm
> > are
> > > > > you
> > > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > > > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
> > > > > miscarry,
> > > > > > children
> > > > > > > > born with birth defects, men going
> > > > > impememnt,
> > > > > > etc..
> > > > > > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > > > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat
> > your
> > > > wife
> > > > > to day
> > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MJM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Kroposki"
> > <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> > 9:12
> > > > > AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs
> > 4
> > > > > cycle
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > > > > > Here we go again. I know better
> > than
> > > > > question
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
> > > > > eloquent
> > > > > > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.
> > > > > Roger
> > > > > > forgets
> > > > > > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > > > > > two robust sons to help. It is
> > the
> > > > old
> > > > > > problem of
> > > > > > > > being able to see a
> > > > > > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > > > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From:
> > > > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> > On
> > > > > > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > 2004
> > > > 7:52
> > > > > AM
> > > > > > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> > Yamaha
> > > > 9.9
> > > > > Water
> > > > > > Pump
> > > > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jay,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The usual problem with the water
> > pump
> > > > > > impellors on
> > > > > > > > small outboards is
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > they are made from some sort of
> > > > rubber.
> > > > > It's
> > > > > > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > > > > > design.
> > > > > > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the
> > > > rubber
> > > > > vanes
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > > > > > water
> > > > > > > > > pump housing, thus making the
> > pump
> > > > > positive
> > > > > > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > > > > > At
> > > > > > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes
> > deflect
> > > > > out of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > > > > > boundary layer of water on the
> > wetted
> > > > > surface
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > > > > > At
> > > > > > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> > > > experience
> > > > > any
> > > > > > wear
> > > > > > > > because they are not
> > > > > > > > > touching the pump housing. This
> > > > design
> > > > > makes
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > > > > > automatically switching from
> > positive
> > > > > > displacement
> > > > > > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > > > > > mode
> > > > > > > > > for delivering the high volume of
> > > > > cooling
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > > > required by high speed
> > > > > > > > > operation.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So what goes wrong? Well, if the
> > > > water
> > > > > pump
> > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > > > > > impellor will lose the
> > lubrication &
> > > > > cooling
> > > > > > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> > > > > quickly, like
> > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > few seconds!
> > > > > > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like
> > the
> > > > > oil film
> > > > > > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > > > > > outboards) will gradually break
> > down
> > > > > the
> > > > > > rubber
> > > > > > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > > > > > impellor; leading to
> > embrittlement,
> > > > > cracking,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > failure. This is
> > > > > > > > > probably
> > > > > > > > > the single biggest long-term
> > failure
> > > > > > mechanism.
> > > > > > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years
> > due
> > > > to
> > > > > this
> > > > > > cause
> > > > > > > > alone. There is also
> > > > > > > > > another common failure mechanism
> > > > > related to
> > > > > > > > storage. When the lower leg
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > lifted free of the water, the
> > entire
> > > > > cooling
> > > > > > > > system drains down. This
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> > > > > self-priming at
> > > > > > > > start-up. Even fresh
> > > > > > > > > water &
> > > > > > > > > especially ocean water, has a
> > certain
> > > > > amount
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > it. When the cooling system
> > drains
> > > > > down, a
> > > > > > small
> > > > > > > > amount of water is
> > > > > > > > > left
> > > > > > > > > trapped in between the ends of
> > the
> > > > > vanes on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > aluminum pump housing. When this
> > > > water
> > > > > > eventually
> > > > > > > > evaporates in
> > > > > > > > > storage,
> > > > > > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded
> > by
> > > > > salt
> > > > > > crystals
> > > > > > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > > > > > Depending upon how strong this
> > bond
> > > > is,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > rubber
> > > > > > > > impellor can be
> > > > > > > > > damaged
> > > > > > > > > the next time the engine is
> > started
> > > > > when the
> > > > > > vanes
> > > > > > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > salt crystals. In addition, for
> > the
> > > > > 1st few
> > > > > > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they
> > form
> > > > a
> > > > > > relatively
> > > > > > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > > > > > water pump housing that the
> > rubber
> > > > > vanes have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > run over on every
> > > > > > > > > revolution. Finally, there can
> > be
> > > > > corrosion
> > > > > > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > > > > > crystals
> > > > > > > > > in long-term contact with the
> > > > aluminum
> > > > > pump
> > > > > > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > salt water, it's considered good
> > > > > practice to
> > > > > > fresh
> > > > > > > > water flush the
> > > > > > > > > cooling
> > > > > > > > > system after every use &
> > certainly
> > > > > before
> > > > > > > > long-term storage. After
> > > > > > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't
> > hurt
> > > > to
> > > > > fresh
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > > > > > system
> > > > > > > > > prior to start-up. As part of my
> > > > > outboard
> > > > > > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > > > > > flush
> > > > > > > > > propylene gylcol potable
> > antifreeze
> > > > (RV
> > > > > "red
> > > > > > pop")
> > > > > > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > > > > > systems
> > > > > > > > > of my outboards. propylene
> > glycol
> > > > will
> > > > > > prevent
> > > > > > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and
> > the
> > > > > water
> > > > > > pump
> > > > > > > > housing. During the
> > > > > > > > > boating season, on every
> > start-up, I
> > > > > gently
> > > > > > pull
> > > > > > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to
> > > > break
> > > > > the
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > the engine several minutes of low
> > > > speed
> > > > > > warm-up.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The result, the only water pump
> > I've
> > > > > ever had
> > > > > > fail
> > > > > > > > on any of my
> > > > > > > > > outboards in
> > > > > > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time
> > > > when
> > > > > my
> > > > > > younger
> > > > > > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> > > > > outboard up on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > beach with the engine
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > full throttle. The water pump
> > > > impellor
> > > > > was
> > > > > > burnt
> > > > > > > > to a crisp!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > > > > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > 2004
> > > > 2:25
> > > > > AM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> > Yamaha
> > > > 9.9
> > > > > Water
> > > > > > Pump
> > > > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > sounds like overkill and make
> > work,
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are
> > only
> > > > > putting
> > > > > > 25-50
> > > > > > > > hours on
> > > > > > > > > > the motor every year, one thing
> > you
> > > > > do have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages,
> > > > clean
> > > > > the pee
> > > > > > tub
> > > > > > > > yearly), is
> > > > > > > > > > one of the few parts on the
> > engine
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > it and they need to be replace
> > every
> > > > > two
> > > > > > years,
> > > > > > > > luckily it
> > > > > > > > > > is also a simple job that you
> > can
> > > > do
> > > > > > yourself.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > MJM
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > > > > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10,
> > 2004
> > > > > 11:25 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> > 9.9
> > > > > Water
> > > > > > Pump
> > > > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> > > > > recommends
> > > > > > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > > > > > assembly
> > > > > > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001
> > > > with
> > > > > this
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first year in service.
> > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> > > > > occasionally
> > > > > > flush
> > > > > > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > > > > > > > month), and end of season run
> > it
> > > > in
> > > > > a
> > > > > > barrel
> > > > > > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off
> > deposits,
> > > > > etc.).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Anybody offer best
> > suggestions on
> > > > > > proceeding
> > > > > > > > with this replacement
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Jay
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Use
> > Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > > Help?
> > > > > > > > [3]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > Help?
> > > > > > > > [4]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > Help?
> > > > > > > > [5]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > Help?
> > > > > > > > [6]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > Help?
> > > > > > >[7]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >__________________________________
> > > > > > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > > >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast
> > by
> > > > > filing
> > > > > > online.
> > > > > > >[8]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > > > > > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > > > [9]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > > > > > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > > > [10]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Keep up with high-tech trends here at
> > > > "Hook'd
> > > > > on
> > > > > > Technology."
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > [11]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > > [12]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by
> > > > filing
> > > > > online.
> > > > > [13]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > > [14]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > > > References
> > > > >
> > > > > 1.
> > mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > 2.
> > mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > 3. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > 4. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > 5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > 6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > 7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > 8. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > 9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > 10. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > 11.
> > > > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > > > 12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > 13. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > 14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> > > > online.
> > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> > online.
> > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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