[Rhodes22-list] Slimmy back in USA?
Steve Alm
salm at mn.rr.com
Thu Jul 22 11:11:32 EDT 2004
Hi Ed,
Yup, we're back. And as a matter of fact, we're heading to Naples, Fla to
attend a family memorial this weekend, so I'll see my mom but not in your
neighborhood.
Stay tuned for a full report on our trip to Brazil.
Slim
On 7/22/04 7:51 AM, "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net> wrote:
> Slim:
>
> Are you back? Planning on seeing your mother anytime soon?
>
> Ed K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Steve Alm
> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 1:31 AM
> To: Rhodes
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] keels difference and CR?
>
> Roger,
>
> Fandango is a 1990, with the diamond keel, IMF and a 175% Genny. I often
> had lee helm in various/numerous conditions and sail plans. After a lot of
> experimentation, head-scratching and a lengthy thread about it here on the
> list a couple years running, I think I've figured it out:
>
> First, I raked my mast back quite a bit by extending the forestay about 2
> and 1/2 to 3 inches--a very generous amount. This moves the center of effort
> aft. Next, adjust the diamond centerboard for the conditions. Adjusting
> the CB also adjusts the center of lateral resistance. As you raise the
> diamond keel the CLR moves forward, gradually creating weather
> helm/decreasing lee helm. And the faster you're going, the less board you
> need (beating); no board on a run; etc. Fine-tuning the CB to fine-tune the
> helm in the given conditions is the key. I have no more lee helm problems.
>
> Slim
>
> On 7/17/04 7:36 AM, "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
>
>> Ed,
>>
>> I don't know about the mast tabernacle on newer Rhodes 22's. On Dynamic
>> Equilibrium, moving the mast aft would interfere with the pop top. The
> pop
>> top slider on my boat runs in the mast groove & bolts directly to the pop
>> top hatch with a hinge to accomdate pop top operation. Without a fairly
>> major redesign of the pop top hatch cover, slider/hinge, & the pop top
>> opening in the cabin roof, there isn't room to move the mast aft even one
>> inch. I know the pop tops on the newer boats are different than on my
> 1976
>> model. But, I am not familiar with the design differences.
>>
>> The mast does not have to be centered directly over the compression post.
>> Of course, direct vertical alignment provides the strongest design & most
>> direct transmission of the mast compression loads to the keel. However,
> if
>> the cabin roof is sufficiently strong; then, the mast can be safely moved
>> from directly over the mast compression post. It's just a matter of
>> designing in the mechanical strength to handle the off-center compression
>> loads.
>>
>> Without doing some computer modeling, it's hard to say how much the mast
>> would need to be moved aft to balance the helm. However, I would think
> the
>> answer would be in the range of a couple of inches. One might be able to
>> accomplish the same result by increasing the static tilt on the mast by
>> lengthening the forestay. All else being equal, increasing the amount of
>> static tilt on the mast (i.e. leaning it more aft), moves the CE of the
> sail
>> plan aft & increases the amount of weather helm (or decreases lee helm).
> It
>> may very be that the lee helm increasing effects of the 175% genoa, IMF
>> mainsail, & diamond board are all sufficiently small that their net effect
>> can be adjusted out by tilting the mast. Do the newer boats come from GBI
>> with a more pronounced aft tilt on the mast?
>>
>> Roger Pihlaja
>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net>
>> To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 9:54 AM
>> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] keels difference and CR?
>>
>>
>>> Michael:
>>>
>>> Mast location - is the compression post supposed to be under the
>>> mast - to distribute loads - prevent cracking of fiberglass and gel coat?
>>> Yet I know that this is not always the case, because I have looked at
>> other
>>> boats, and I know that the do not always match perfectly. Is this a
>>> question for a Navel Architect?
>>> Are you talking about an inch or two? If someone took an older hull
>>> and put in the new diamond board, then he would have to move the mast
>>> tabernacle aft or forward? What about the boats that Stan routinely
>> changes
>>> from standard to IMF? Are the sail measurement changes sufficient to
> keep
>>> the center of resistance in the same location?
>>>
>>> ED K
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael Meltzer
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:23 PM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] keels- is there a difference?
>>>
>>> I think he moved the mast, IIRC it was under the compression post at one
>>> point now it has moved backwards.
>>>
>>> MJM
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:32 PM
>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] keels- is there a difference?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Todd,
>>>>
>>>> After writing my response to Roger Brown in the UK & studying the
>> diamond
>>>> board pictures on the GBI website, I have my own question for Stan & the
>>>> list. The design of the diamond board looks to me like it would move
>> the
>>>> Center of Resistance (CR) of the keel aft relative to the position of
>> the
>>> CR
>>>> with the early centerboard. All else being equal, moving the CR aft
>> tends
>>>> to cause lee helm. The diamond boards are being installed on the newer
>>>> boats that tend to come equipped with the 175% genoa and the IMF
>> mainsail.
>>>> The IMF mainsail has about 10 square feet less area than the standard
>>>> mainsail. It is my understanding that the missing sail area was all
>> taken
>>>> from the roach at the back of the IMF mainsail. Big headsails and
>> smaller
>>>> mainsails with less roach both tend to move the Center of Effort (CE) of
>>> the
>>>> sail plan forward. Again, all else being equal, moving the CE forward
>>> tends
>>>> to cause lee helm. So, the newest Rhodes 22's seem to have 3 features
>>> that
>>>> should each cause lee helm.
>>>>
>>>> So my question for Stan & the list is: Do the newer boats with the
>> diamond
>>>> board, 175% genoas, & IMF mainsails have a lot of lee helm? If not, was
>>>> some other change like moving the mast aft or the shoal draft keel
>> forward
>>>> also made at the same time as the diamond board was adopted?
>>>>
>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 3:06 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bob Skinner -keels- is there a difference?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I monitor other lists as well as boat lists. One list for is
>>>>> elevator people to exchange technical information, etc. Very often
>>> we
>>>>> get questions posted by engineering students that are given
>>>>> assignments to build theoretical elevators in a building 5280 ft
>> tall
>>>>> and need to know beam loads and building codes. Or to explain
>> relay
>>>>> logic for elevator operation or breakdown of the microprocessor
>>>>> algorythms for traffic management. Most of these questions are too
>>>>> complex to explain in an e-mail. Some are impossible.
>>>>>
>>>>> What Rhodes 22 owner knows the information that Mr Brown is
>>> asking
>>>>> for? or even cares? We would like to know which board points
>>> better
>>>>> or goes faster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe Mr. Brown is trying to manufacture Rhodes 22 knock-offs in
>>
>>>>> Great Britian and doesn't have a marine architect or engineer
>> running
>>>>> his CAD. I am sure that Stan did not just pull these dimensions
>> and
>>>>> specs out of his rear-end, but spent some time and money
>> researching.
>>>>> Lordy Lordy remember the stink I caused over getting a copy of an
>>>>> owners manual posted? Mr Brown is asking for very precise
>>>>> information, so I am confident that he is intelligent enough to
>> have
>>>>> figured out sooner how to unsubscribe himself....but as I only know
>>>>> too well...for a would-be blogger, it is like the moth to the
>> flame.
>>> :
>>>>> )
>>>>>
>>>>> The least we could do for him is to plug his name into a complaint
>>>>> generator and wait for him to look up all of the "polysyllabic
>>>>> neologisms" right Michael? :^{D lmao
>>>>>
>>>>> Todd
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "ed kroposki"
>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:25:14 -0400
>>>>> To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bob Skinner -keels- is there a difference?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>> Several of us replied to him off list. His replies were .... as
>> MJM
>>>>>> mentioned. I doubt that any of us know the cord and centers that
>> he
>>>>> wanted,
>>>>>> not that he would have understood them. We were just curious as
>> to
>>>>> why he
>>>>>> wanted such technical information. If you have the information
>> that
>>>>> he
>>>>>> wanted in the first place, send it to him and see what happens.
>>>>>> Now that he brought up the subject, I would be interested in tank
>>>>>> test results of the two systems. If you recall earlier this year
>> we
>>>>> has a
>>>>>> discussion on the pointing ability of the R 22. Is there a
>>>>> difference
>>>>>> between the two keels?
>>>>>> In magazines and other on-line discussions, there recently has
>> been
>>>>>> discussion of putting canting keels on very small boats. Do you
>>>>> supposes
>>>>>> that Stan will put one on a Rhodes 22? In time for the October
>> Boat
>>>>> Show?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Robert
>>>>> Skinner
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:44 AM
>>>>>> To: Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Browned off - Why not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thought "Roger Brown" wanted out on the 12th.
>>>>>> Now he's posting a nasty on the 14th.
>>>>>> Why not just give him what he asked for in the
>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW - I can't find the 7/14 Brown message that MJM
>>>>>> includes in his (on target) comments about manners.
>>>>>> Was it killed before it got thru to the membership,
>>>>>> or did I delete it somehow?
>>>>>>
>>>>> & gt; /Bob Skinner
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Please Unsubscribe me!!!
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:14:17 +0100 (BST)
>>>>>> From: roger brown
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>> To: Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you please unsubscribe me! I am tired of
>>>>>> receiving the gossiping of everybody..
>>>>>> Roger brown
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> ___________________________________________________________
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>>>>> References
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.
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>>>
>>
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>>>>
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