[Rhodes22-list] back to Gennys ....Bullshit.

Sun Mar 14 10:59:17 EST 2004

Thanks Bill, you know the old saying .... different strokes for different 
folks. Any one want to loan me a 175 for a week or so? :-)

Wally

>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]  back to Gennys ....Bullshit.
>Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:59:48 -0500
>
>Wally,
>
>I have no stake in which sail you select for your boat, I only want to 
>state for the record that I have and adore the 175 genny.  It is an 
>extremely unique sail specifically designed for the Rhodes-22 for use on 
>Long Island Sound by the man who has been refining the boat for the past 30 
>something years.  I sail a Rhodes-22 on Long Island Sound, and, for me, the 
>sail is a knockout.  I wouldn't have any other.
>
>I don't knock other sails, and can see the benefits of one sail or another 
>in given circumstances.  I know you can, too, and that is what you are 
>grappling with.
>
>My philosophy of sailing is exactly the same as Rummy's, posted a few 
>months ago, which I will now cut and paste.  All my postings should be read 
>in light of Rummy's philosophy:
>
>   "I like to keep things simple because a lot of complicated things takes 
>brain power and thought and that just takes away from my drinking time 
>while sailing. That's another reason you don't find a lot of fandangled 
>hardware on my boat like spinnakers and poles and the like.  They take too 
>much time to handle and it takes away from the real reason I sail.....I 
>like to drink and listen to loud music. I have the funnest boat on the 
>lake.....ask anybody.......they all know RumRunner. Yes, you might blow my 
>doors off, but who cares?"
>
>Bill Effros
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Wally Buck
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 8:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] back to Gennys ....Bullshit.
>
>
>Bill,
>
>As I mentioned in an earlier post it would be nice to be able to test sail
>before you buy. I also said I am trying to keep an open mind.
>
>I am not confusing discomfort with speed. Any decent sailor knows that a
>boat heeling excessively is not at optimum trim. Sure the race committee
>penalizes you for head sails larger than a 155. I agree that a 175 can be a
>faster sail. I am just not sure the advantage is at 20 knots of true wind.
>That being said I have never sailed with one and I am looking for the best
>sail for about 8 - 12.
>
>I don't have a wind gauge or knot meter. I guess at wind speed when 
>pleasure
>sailing and rely on the committee boat to announce and record wind speed
>when racing.  I measure boat speed with my GPS. I am also trying to use the
>VMG features.
>
>Many variables to consider but Rummy and I both have an 84. I don't think 
>my
>boat is loaded down much at all, can't speak for Rummy's. Earlier posts did
>not mention hanky mains when sailing in 20. I know that I need to furl main
>and my 125 when sailing in 20 knots. If I make the main too small it seems
>like I have eliminated the slot and there is no lift provided. I might as
>well just furl all of the way.
>
>PS - Just got back from a nice 24 mile sail. Picture perfect with about 10
>-15. Too bad I didn't have a 175 to play with. :-)
>
>Wally
>
>
> >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:29:03 -0500
> >
> >Roger,
> >
> >I use a hand held anemometer, also, and, like you, I know people often
> >overestimate wind speed.  But, again, like you, I do not.
> >
> >The mistake we sometimes make is in thinking that all of our boats and
> >conditions are the same.  But, as I recall, your boat does not have IMF,
> >your mainsail has battens, you do not have a 175 genny, your boat is
> >considerably lighter in weight than boats of more recent vintage, you do
> >not normally sail in currents, and you do not normally sail in conditions
> >where you can stay on a single tack for hours on end in a steady,
> >non-gusting wind.
> >
> >"Bullshit" is rather a strong technical term when so many different 
>factors
> >could be involved.
> >
> >I asked Wally if he has a standard or IMF main because in my experience 
>it
> >is the main sail that controls heel, and the genny that provides the 
>power
> >on my boat.  In strong winds I roll up the main far enough so the boat
> >sails upright.  Sometimes this results in a stupid looking "hanky" coming
> >out of my IMF slot.  I leave the 175 all the way out.  There isn't 
>another
> >boat on Long Island Sound that has its sails set even remotely like
> >mine--but my boat goes like a bat out of hell--in total comfort, 
>completely
> >under control.
> >
> >I don't like to lower the boom, and rarely do so.  I reduce main sail 
>size
> >instead.  I don't race, I don't sail triangular courses.  I can set an
> >interesting tack and stay with it all day, and with any luck I can 
>reverse
> >the tack and sail all the way home.
> >
> >If Wally had said he has a standard mail sail, I would not necessarily
> >recommend the 175 for his boat.  But since he says he has the IMF, I 
>would.
> >  The race committees are right.  The 175 genny is going to make the boat 
>a
> >faster boat.
> >
> >Many people don't know how fast they're going through the water, either.
> >They tend to confuse discomfort with speed.  It feels much faster when 
>you
> >are petrified about tipping over.  But an R-22 is designed to sail 
>upright,
> >and if you can measure the speed you will see it goes faster upright than
> >heeled, all other conditions being equal.  Ask Jay about this.
> >
> >Furthermore, the characteristics of a fully extended 175 genny outside 
>the
> >shrouds are substantially different from the characteristics of a 125 
>fully
> >extended genny inside the shrouds.
> >
> >If it is important to me to point higher I will move the sail inside
> >shrouds, but the amount of sail available in those conditions is
> >substantially less than is available with smaller sails cut to the 
>purpose.
> >
> >Returning from all these digressions to what is actually my main point:
> >because we are all owners of Rhodes-22 sailboats we frequently forget 
>that
> >there are substantial and important differences between our boats.  I 
>don't
> >have the time to mention it every time I see it, but it disturbs me when 
>I
> >see forceful writers or experienced sailors try to bludgeon others into
> >accepting their points of view, which may not be valid for all other
> >members of the list.
> >
> >Bill Effros
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Roger Pihlaja
> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:16 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> >
> >
> >Rummy,
> >
> >It is when folks claim things that are physically impossible.  The force
> >available from the wind on the sails is proportional to the
> >[Wind Speed]^2.  How is it that my Rhodes 22 is healed over at 30 deg 
>with
> >the rails awash at about 12 -15 knots of wind when sailing an upwind beat 
>&
> >yet other Rhodes 22's claim to be able to carry full sail up to 20 knots?
> >This means that; somehow, these other Rhodes 22's are able to stand up
> >against a heeling force that is [20]^2 / [15]^2 = 1.78X the heeling force
> >that knocks my Rhodes 22 down on its rail.  I don't think so!  The more
> >likely explanation is incorrect wind speed estimation.  Since I use a 
>hand
> >held anemometer and calibrate every year, I believe my data.  Again, get
> >yourself an anemometer, measure the wind speed, & show me your data.  We
> >can
> >argue until the cows come home, but I won't believe your anecdotal 
>examples
> >over my own data.  I think you will be surprised how much you are
> >overestimating the wind speed.
> >
> >Roger Pihlaja
> >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> >To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:22 AM
> >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> >
> >
> > > Dear Roger,
> > > The next time you are in this area, stop in and let's go sailing. 
>Until
> >then,
> > > Bullshit is not an appropriate term to be used on this list. You bring
> >the
> > > rum.
> > >
> > > Rummy
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
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>
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