[Rhodes22-list] boat weight and lifting

Todd Tavares sprocket80 at mail.com
Sun Mar 14 19:51:23 EST 2004 

Peter,

   This is probably answered in a previous post,  but why is the boat off of the trailer?
 I had the opportunity...or should I say task...this weekend of putting my boat up on blocking and taking the trailer out from under it.  Going back under with the trailer,  I knocked the boat off of the blocks and she rolled, resting on the trailer in about a 30 degree "heel".   The starboard bunk was almost under the rail, and the port side bunk was an inch from the keel.  My brother-in-law joked that I was dry sailing for sure.
  
  I jacked and blocked the bow, and using my A-frame and two chain falls, picked the stern using the two eyes on the transom to raise and level the boat.  I was skeptical that the eyes would hold.   I thought I had read here on the list some time ago someone called them lifting eyes and said Stan picks the boats by the stern and bow eyes in the factory, but I didn't have the time to go online and research the archives.  I doubt I'll ever do that again, but they were rock solid.  I was amazed!!  And my hat is off to Stan!  


Todd


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:14:07 -0500
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] boat weight

> Hi Mary Lou!
> 
> Phoenix was weighed at the I-95 truck scales near the South Carolina/Georgia
> border last October.  By subtracting the known weight of tow vehicle and
> trailer, something like 3 tons,  and allowing 250 pounds for mast, boom,
> cushions, sails, rigging, rotten particle board in the cabin, and for the
> tropical frog in the lazarette that hasn't been found yet, she's about
> 3,300.  I admit and hope, this boat weight estimate could be high.
> 
> The first major Phoenix project is a bottom restoration and reinstallation
> of the new CB.  Come to think of it, after we remove the approximate 10
> coats of heavy metal bottom paint accumulated since 1984, that should reduce
> some weight too!  When that is complete, the plan is to get her back on the
> trailer, after taking a very accurate tare of the truck and Triad, and to
> the Chapel Hill landfill scales to determine a true "bare boat" weight.
> I'll let you all know these more accurate results then... but please don't
> hold your breath waiting.
> 
> In real cruising life, I don't think 10-15% variances in boat weight matter
> much.  If it were not relatively easy for me the determine Phoenix's weight,
> I probably wouldn't bother.  As you know, many of us, especially me, are
> obsessed with our boats and messing around with them, so these facts become
> interesting.  Best regards to you and Fred.
> 
> Fair winds,
> 
> PT
> 
> 
> 
> > Pete - was there anything else on board when you weighed Phoenix? I assume
> > you subtracted the trailer weight.  3300 is 400 over the published
> weight -
> > though I'm not sure there was ever an R22 that weighed 2900 lbs. Maybe
> > without the mast? We've never weighed Fretless but she's a '91 so we've
> > always figured she was on the heavy side though perhaps not as heavy as
> the
> > boats with the permanent head, holding tank and head enclosure.
> >
> > Mary Lou
> >
> > At 08:04 AM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Wally,
> > >
> > >I think it's great that you are enjoying racing, and have learned you can
> > >PHRF race with bigger boats and beat them.  Go Wally!
> > >
> > >As for the genny selection, I'm with Steve on this... get the 155.  It
> makes
> > >a great deal of sense NOT to penalize yourself to start with a worse
> (lower)
> > >rating just because of the perceived benefit a bigger sail implies, but
> > >really only comes into play in light air conditions.  Around here (lake
> > >sailing; no seabreeze), the best racing is in the winter anyway, where
> the
> > >155 would be preferable for winter's fresh breezes. You can probably furl
> a
> > >155 down to about a 110 with a tapered luff pad and have a little sail
> shape
> > >left to race with.  Also, a 155 is still considered a "light air" sail.
> > >
> > >Another important consideration is clew height.  A higher clewed headsail
> > >furls easier and gives you move visibility under the foot to view the
> > >crossing approaching traffic, so you would not need a window.  Many
> > >racer/cruisers seem to like these features.  However, due to geometry, a
> > >higher clewed 155 would extend much farther aft than a decksweeper 155.
> > >Also, with a decksweeper I've heard talk about "end plate" effect with
> the
> > >wind on the deck.  Plus the sail's center of effort is lower and more
> > >forward so it's easier to hold down..  I just mention these points to you
> so
> > >you can have a good discussion with your sailmaker.
> > >
> > >My 84 R22, the Phoenix, is on shoring supports in the yard patiently
> waiting
> > >for her "make-over".  It will probably be two years before she is ready
> to
> > >launch, with other work and sailing distractions in my que ahead of her.
> > >Just for the record, on the trip to NC, the Phoenix weighed in at 3,300
> > >pounds at a highway truck scale.   Seems heavy for an old boat, don't you
> > >think?
> > >
> > >Fair winds,
> > >
> > >PT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > > As I mentioned in an earlier post it would be nice to be able to test
> sail
> > > > before you buy. I also said I am trying to keep an open mind.
> > > >
> > > > I am not confusing discomfort with speed. Any decent sailor knows that
> a
> > > > boat heeling excessively is not at optimum trim. Sure the race
> committee
> > > > penalizes you for head sails larger than a 155. I agree that a 175 can
> be
> > >a
> > > > faster sail. I am just not sure the advantage is at 20 knots of true
> wind.
> > > > That being said I have never sailed with one and I am looking for the
> best
> > > > sail for about 8 - 12.
> > > >
> > > > I don't have a wind gauge or knot meter. I guess at wind speed when
> > >pleasure
> > > > sailing and rely on the committee boat to announce and record wind
> speed
> > > > when racing.  I measure boat speed with my GPS. I am also trying to
> use
> > >the
> > > > VMG features.
> > > >
> > > > Many variables to consider but Rummy and I both have an 84. I don't
> think
> > >my
> > > > boat is loaded down much at all, can't speak for Rummy's. Earlier
> posts
> > >did
> > > > not mention hanky mains when sailing in 20. I know that I need to furl
> > >main
> > > > and my 125 when sailing in 20 knots. If I make the main too small it
> seems
> > > > like I have eliminated the slot and there is no lift provided. I might
> as
> > > > well just furl all of the way.
> > > >
> > > > PS - Just got back from a nice 24 mile sail. Picture perfect with
> about 10
> > > > -15. Too bad I didn't have a 175 to play with. :-)
> > > >
> > > > Wally
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > > >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:29:03 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > >Roger,
> > > > >
> > > > >I use a hand held anemometer, also, and, like you, I know people
> often
> > > > >overestimate wind speed.  But, again, like you, I do not.
> > > > >
> > > > >The mistake we sometimes make is in thinking that all of our boats
> and
> > > > >conditions are the same.  But, as I recall, your boat does not have
> IMF,
> > > > >your mainsail has battens, you do not have a 175 genny, your boat is
> > > > >considerably lighter in weight than boats of more recent vintage, you
> do
> > > > >not normally sail in currents, and you do not normally sail in
> conditions
> > > > >where you can stay on a single tack for hours on end in a steady,
> > > > >non-gusting wind.
> > > > >
> > > > >"Bullshit" is rather a strong technical term when so many different
> > >factors
> > > > >could be involved.
> > > > >
> > > > >I asked Wally if he has a standard or IMF main because in my
> experience
> > >it
> > > > >is the main sail that controls heel, and the genny that provides the
> > >power
> > > > >on my boat.  In strong winds I roll up the main far enough so the
> boat
> > > > >sails upright.  Sometimes this results in a stupid looking "hanky"
> coming
> > > > >out of my IMF slot.  I leave the 175 all the way out.  There isn't
> > >another
> > > > >boat on Long Island Sound that has its sails set even remotely like
> > > > >mine--but my boat goes like a bat out of hell--in total comfort,
> > >completely
> > > > >under control.
> > > > >
> > > > >I don't like to lower the boom, and rarely do so.  I reduce main sail
> > >size
> > > > >instead.  I don't race, I don't sail triangular courses.  I can set
> an
> > > > >interesting tack and stay with it all day, and with any luck I can
> > >reverse
> > > > >the tack and sail all the way home.
> > > > >
> > > > >If Wally had said he has a standard mail sail, I would not
> necessarily
> > > > >recommend the 175 for his boat.  But since he says he has the IMF, I
> > >would.
> > > > >  The race committees are right.  The 175 genny is going to make the
> boat
> > >a
> > > > >faster boat.
> > > > >
> > > > >Many people don't know how fast they're going through the water,
> either.
> > > > >They tend to confuse discomfort with speed.  It feels much faster
> when
> > >you
> > > > >are petrified about tipping over.  But an R-22 is designed to sail
> > >upright,
> > > > >and if you can measure the speed you will see it goes faster upright
> than
> > > > >heeled, all other conditions being equal.  Ask Jay about this.
> > > > >
> > > > >Furthermore, the characteristics of a fully extended 175 genny
> outside
> > >the
> > > > >shrouds are substantially different from the characteristics of a 125
> > >fully
> > > > >extended genny inside the shrouds.
> > > > >
> > > > >If it is important to me to point higher I will move the sail inside
> > > > >shrouds, but the amount of sail available in those conditions is
> > > > >substantially less than is available with smaller sails cut to the
> > >purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > >Returning from all these digressions to what is actually my main
> point:
> > > > >because we are all owners of Rhodes-22 sailboats we frequently forget
> > >that
> > > > >there are substantial and important differences between our boats.  I
> > >don't
> > > > >have the time to mention it every time I see it, but it disturbs me
> when
> > >I
> > > > >see forceful writers or experienced sailors try to bludgeon others
> into
> > > > >accepting their points of view, which may not be valid for all other
> > > > >members of the list.
> > > > >
> > > > >Bill Effros
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:16 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Rummy,
> > > > >
> > > > >It is when folks claim things that are physically impossible.  The
> force
> > > > >available from the wind on the sails is proportional to the
> > > > >[Wind Speed]^2.  How is it that my Rhodes 22 is healed over at 30 deg
> > >with
> > > > >the rails awash at about 12 -15 knots of wind when sailing an upwind
> beat
> > >&
> > > > >yet other Rhodes 22's claim to be able to carry full sail up to 20
> knots?
> > > > >This means that; somehow, these other Rhodes 22's are able to stand
> up
> > > > >against a heeling force that is [20]^2 / [15]^2 = 1.78X the heeling
> force
> > > > >that knocks my Rhodes 22 down on its rail.  I don't think so!  The
> more
> > > > >likely explanation is incorrect wind speed estimation.  Since I use a
> > >hand
> > > > >held anemometer and calibrate every year, I believe my data.  Again,
> get
> > > > >yourself an anemometer, measure the wind speed, & show me your data.
> We
> > > > >can
> > > > >argue until the cows come home, but I won't believe your anecdotal
> > >examples
> > > > >over my own data.  I think you will be surprised how much you are
> > > > >overestimating the wind speed.
> > > > >
> > > > >Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > > > >To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:22 AM
> > > > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Roger,
> > > > > > The next time you are in this area, stop in and let's go sailing.
> > >Until
> > > > >then,
> > > > > > Bullshit is not an appropriate term to be used on this list. You
> bring
> > > > >the
> > > > > > rum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rummy
> > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >__________________________________________________
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> > > >
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