[Rhodes22-list] New Genny - Was Bullshit

[Wally Buck]

Thanks and good luck on your test.

Wally


>From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] New Genny - Was Bullshit
>Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:12:19 -0500
>
>Wally,
>
>The Rhodes 22 has gotten heavier over the years.  The early models, like
>mine, were built by a variety of subcontract boat yards.  Stan wasn't
>satisfied with the inconsistent quality from some of these subcontractors &
>eventually brought the whole operation in house.  I think this was around
>1980 & the boats immediately became a little heavier due to thicker lay-up
>schedules & just generally reinforcing things that had proven to be
>undersized.  Since then, the boats have gotten steadily heavier due to
>adding more stuff, for example:
>
>Sliding doors on the cabinets behind the sink vs. open bins
>Marine head + holding tank vs. porta-potti
>Fully enclosed wooden head compartment bulkheads & hinged doors vs. 
>curtains
>Tiled cabin sole
>Electric motor lifts vs. manual
>IMF mainsail vs. standard mainsail
>More electronics
>So on & so forth
>
>I'm not prepared to argue the additional weight or merits of each of these
>pieces of gear or production standard changes except to say; that, without
>exception, they all added weight.  In addition, most of this additional 
>mass
>was located up relatively high in the boat, which negatively impacted
>stability and heeling.
>
>Wally, I don't know exactly how your boat was originally equipped &/or how
>you or previous owners may have changed it since it was new.
>
>The Rhodes 22 is very sensitive to fore/aft trim as well as side-to-side
>trim.  When I remodeled my galley in 1987, adding the 2-burner LP gas 
>stove,
>I also moved my battery from its original location under the starboard side
>cockpit seat to up under the V-berth on the port side beside the water 
>tank.
>This shifting of the battery's mass restored fore/aft & side-to-side trim
>based upon adding the mass of the stove in the starboard side galley.  In
>flat water (& thus also in light air), I have found a slight bow-down trim
>condition is slightly faster than level on the water line & significantly
>faster than a slight bow-up trim condition.  In the slight bow-down trim,
>there is slightly less lee helm when heeled over, the boat points a couple
>of degrees higher, the waterline length is slightly longer, there is less
>turbulence being shed off the transom, & less drag from the hull underbody
>beneath the cockpit area.  The most common cause of a bow-up trim condition
>is overloading the stern lazarette compartment.  Because the stern 
>lazarette
>compartment is enormous and at the extreme end of the boat, you must be
>careful what you store in it.
>
>But, in any kind of waves or chop, a bow-down trim condition can be
>detrimental or even dangerous.  Trimmed bow-down, the Rhodes 22 may not 
>have
>sufficient reserve floatation at the bow to punch thru waves & chop.  The
>bow tends to plow into a wave vs. riding up & over.  This can stop the
>boat's progress to windward dead in its tracks & result in a dramatic
>reduction in the boat's pointing ability.  I tend to store light bulky 
>stuff
>in the lazarette compartment like sails, lines, sea anchor, sleeping bags,
>clothing, etc.  For choppy conditions, try for a fore/aft trim as close to
>level on the water line as possible.  A bow-up trim condition is always to
>be avoided.  If you have the stern rail "captain's chairs", avoid sitting 
>in
>them when you are concerned about pointing ability to windward or sailing
>speed.
>
>As far as the choice of a 175% genoa vs. a 150% vs. 135% vs. ?%; it all
>depends upon the prevailing sailing conditions where you sail at the time 
>of
>year & day when you do most of your sailing.  The lighter the dominent
>prevailing conditions, the larger ?% you should go with your new genoa.  If
>you want to race your Rhodes 22; then, get a 150% genoa because of the
>penalties associated with other sizes.  If you do get a deck sweeping 175%
>genoa, just realise that huge sail can be a real bear to tack on a light 
>air
>day.  It's easy to get it hung up on the foredeck, resulting in getting
>caught in irons.
>
>If you have a roller furler which permits headsail changes without lowering
>the mast; then, the 1st genoa you should get is a 150%.  Later, when you 
>get
>a 175% genoa, get the sail shape fullness cut for lighter air & built of
>lighter sailcloth.  You will find this "175% lite" genoa will work much
>better in light air than the OEM standard 175% genoa, which is a compomised
>cut for both light & heavy air & is built of much heavier sailcloth to
>withstand heavy air use.
>
>Wally, I hope this helps.  I have to go study for my 2nd exam in ME451,
>Machine Design now.  That class is like a combination of everything we
>learned in Statics, Dynamics, Engineering Materials, & Engineering 
>Mechanics
>all happening at the same time.  I got a 90% on the 1st exam, which was the
>2nd highest grade in the class.
>
>Roger Pihlaja
>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:55 AM
>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] New Genny - Was Bullshit
>
>
> > Roger,
> >
> > Didn't bother me, I have to admit I was thinking the same thing
> > ......remember I am the one who said I furl main (lower boom as well) 
>and
>my
> > 125 in 20 plus. I have myself and any crew on the rail. Your earlier 
>post
> > regarding different wind speeds and sail plans made sense to me.
> >
> > I am curious about one of your comments. What is on my boat that would
>make
> > it so much heavier than yours? I suspect my 84 may weigh the same or 
>less
> > than yours but I don't know. Do the older ones have less ballast or less
> > fiber glass? I know the IMF mast adds weight and all of it up high so 
>this
> > would add weight to mine and certainly increase heeling to an extent. 
>Are
> > there other construction differences between an 84 and 70s model.
> >
> > I suspect you might carry more gear than me. My tool box consists of 
>spare
> > fuses,spark plug socket, spare plugs, vise grips, a couple of pliers,
>mulit
> > use screw driver, 2 real screw drivers, some cotter pins, multimeter,
>spare
> > wire, various electrical fittings and sail tape. I only carry one small
> > anchor, don't have water in the tank, and usually none in the porta 
>potti.
> > If you look behind my sliding mirror cabinets you will see empty space.
> > Nothing is stored on the little shelf over the galley either. I keep a
> > little cooking stuff under the sink but not much ( one small pan). 
>Nothing
> > is stored in the v-birth other than spinnaker and bag with rain gear. I 
>do
> > have two Group 24 batteries, 2 spotlights, flashlight, and a charger. I 
>do
> > not have any solar panels. My laz has 8X10 tarp, extra line of various
> > sizes. life jackets, a bucket, bailing pump, and some cleaning supplies. 
>I
> > have no wind vane, knot meter or depth gauge. I use a hand held radio 
>and
> > have a small stereo. I carry atmost 3 gallons of gas and my outboard
>weighs
> > about 50 pounds. I almost forgot, I do carry some liquid ballast in a
>cooler
> > that I lighten as the day goes on. :-) I also have no bimini.
> >
> > Now when things warm up and we start over nighting my boat get a little
> > heavier. The bedding stays on. I also fill up water tank with about 5
> > gallons or so and add water to the porta potti.  I also add a 50 pound
> > inflatable kayak and various other gear.
> >
> > One of these days I just need to get the whole rig weighed.
> >
> > Now today it is supposed to be blowing near 20 with 30% chance of rain. 
>So
> > it is back to the lake.
> >
> > Wallly
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] New Genny - Was Bullshit
> > >Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:52:55 -0500
> > >
> > >Rummy, Wally, et al...
> > >
> > >If I offended any of you with the bullshit comment my previous post;
>then,
> > >I apologise.
> > >
> > >It is my understanding that GBI upgraded the standard genoa size from
>150%
> > >to 175% at around the same time as the IMF mainsail & the luxurious 
>(but
> > >heavy) cabin interiors became available.  The older Rhodes 22's, like
> > >Dynamic Equilibrium, my 1976 model, have always been at their best in
>light
> > >to moderate wind speeds (0 - 15 knots).  As the boat's weight increased
>and
> > >the mainsail area decreased & became less efficient with the IMF
>mainsail,
> > >the increase in genoa size was an attempt by GBI to maintain some sort 
>of
> > >light air performance parity with the older models.  However, if
>anything,
> > >it would be expected the 175% genoa would need to start furling at 
>lower
> > >wind speeds than the older models; not greater as some of you are
>claiming.
> > >
> > >The Rhodes 22 is a remarkable little boat.  I really enjoy sailing and
> > >cruising on Dynamic Equilibrium in all kinds of weather.  But, let's 
>not
> > >let our enthusiam for the product prevent us from keeping this 
>discussion
> > >grounded in reality.  There isn't a trailerable sailboat made that can
> > >carry full sail area upwind in 20 knots and certainly not at the
> > >[Sail Area] / [Displacement] ratio of the Rhodes 22.  Any trailerable
> > >sailboat so undercanvased; that, it could carry full sail area upwind 
>in
>20
> > >knots, wouldn't be able to get out of its own way in light air.
>Gentlemen,
> > >what you are claiming is physically impossible, a violation of several
>laws
> > >of physics and aerodynamics.
> > >
> > >Roger Pihlaja
> > >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
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> > __________________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list

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