lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????

[Mary Lou Troy]

Slim,
I think that's what Stan was talking about when we discussed the helm on 
the R22 - that the neutral helm in 5 to 8 knot range was worth the lee helm 
in the very light air. Stan's a big fan of a very light helm and after 
years of working out the weather helm on our Com-Pac 16 I'd have to agree.

What year is Fandango? She and Fretless look so much alike - maybe it's the 
white hull ;-)  We are OK with the lee helm in very light air but that 
runaway feeling can be scary in higher winds. Fortunately, in higher winds 
it's easier to bring under control just by reducing the headsail.

To anyone wondering - we are a bit slow on the uptake - we've been fussing 
with this off and on for 5 years. We don't get a lot of chance to practice 
in consistent winds. Often by the time we think we've figured something 
out, the winds have changed or the tidal current has changed or there are 
t'storms building and we need to head for home regardless of the helm issues.

Thanks for the input,
Mary Lou




At 11:18 PM 3/14/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>Mary Lou and Peter,
>
>I have the IMF and a 175% genny and  we've always had a lee helm issue with
>our boat.  But, like Mary Lou, as the wind picks up, at some point we go
>from a lee helm to a weather helm.  I'm not sure, but I think the change
>happens around 12-15 kts.  We've found this to be acceptable.  I've tried
>adjusting everything I can think of--sail trim, mast rake, varying the depth
>of the CB, or anything else that can change the C/E - CLR ratio, and the
>result is nominal.  I've concluded that this is simply a characteristic of
>the R22 rigged with IMF and 175.  Stan has addressed this issue with the
>battened IMF, but it looks like the jury is still out on that.  But since I
>get the weather helm in higher winds (that's when it matters) I'm OK with
>some lee helm in lighter winds.
>
>Slim
>
>On 3/14/04 8:27 PM, "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Peter,
> > I think you have a long genoa track (or maybe the right length ;-) ). I
> > just spent a while looking at the R22 pics on my hard drive and on the
> > rhodes22.org site. Looks like most are about like Fretless though there is
> > a small variation - none as long as yours though.
> >
> > Fretless was purchased recycled with a new genoa and main by Doyle
> > Offshore. Stan and crew set her up and Stan actually sailed her briefly in
> > a moderate breeze. The genoa is on a GBI furler so I suspect there isn't
> > anything unusual with the forestay. Stan has commented that R22s tend to a
> > neutral helm and that it is not uncommon for them to have slight lee helm
> > in light air but that as the winds kick up the lee helm goes away.
> > Obviously we've had more of an issue with it than that but we are working
> > on it for just the reasons you list.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Mary Lou
> >
> > At 07:54 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >> Mary Lou,
> >>
> >> Given that the board is all the way down and as forward as possible, then
> >> the only way to cure lee helm would be to move the rig aft.  If your move
> >> the rig's Center of Effort aft, the lee helm would reduce, then go away.
> >> Move it far enough and you will have weather helm.  The devil is in
> >> determining exactly how much distance to move aft.  I think 
> lengthening the
> >> forestay is a great place to start.
> >>
> >> B/T/W, I just looked at a great picture of Fretless, Fred and you 
> (attached)
> >> showing your big 175 and Genoa tracks.  The tracks do not appear to extend
> >> past the winches.  On Phoenix, the tracks start at about the same place as
> >> they do on Fretless, but they extend almost to the "Rhodes 22" 
> nameplate. I
> >> suppose there is a lot of rigging variance among R22s.  If so, it makes me
> >> wonder if all R22s have the same length forestay and other standing 
> rigging.
> >> Clearly, the I, J, P and E are set by Phillip Rhodes, but that still 
> leaves
> >> a lot of room for standing rigging adjustment.   I've never seen an R22
> >> specification that includes this information.  Have you or anyone?
> >>
> >> In one-design classes, sailmakers publish "tuning guides" that recommend
> >> specific lengths for various standing rigging parts, to optimize trimming
> >> their sails.  Perhaps you could contact the sailmaker of your Genoa and
> >> obtain a recommended forestay length and other standing rigging dimensions
> >> for Fretless with the IMF and 175.  This could give you an idea if your
> >> current forestay could be way out.
> >>
> >> To answer your question about trimming the Genoa more forward than its
> >> current aft position on the tracks, imagine the situation like 
> this:  1) the
> >> sail is a big triangle, fixed to the stem fitting at the tack, which 
> cannot
> >> move; 2) lengthening the forestay would rotate the sail head aft: 3) the
> >> clew would be correspondingly rotated down toward the deck; 4) this would
> >> move the trim point forward on the Genoa track.
> >>
> >> Most boats are designed with a slight weather helm as a safety factor 
> so in
> >> a puff or heavy air, you can count on the boat rounding up to a luff 
> if the
> >> tiller is let go.  A boat with lee helm just wants to bear off and take on
> >> more air, if left to its own devices.  Under adverse conditions this could
> >> cause some problems - an uncontrolled and unexpected gybe, for example.  I
> >> think this is a problem worth solving.
> >>
> >> Fair winds,
> >>
> >> PT
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter,
> >> I'm not following. I don't think there is any way that the clew of the
> >> genoa will trim forward on the tracks - no matter how far aft we rake the
> >> mast. Closehauled, our 175 trims right to the aft end of our genoa 
> track by
> >> the winch. I don't believe the inch or so that we can adjust the forestay
> >> (We have a couple of holes left on the adjuster) will make much difference
> >> in where the genoa will trim to  - it might however improve the helm -
> >> that's what we're hoping. I don't think we would want the mast raked any
> >> more than that.
> >>
> >> In response to your other suggestion, we have measured to make sure the
> >> mast is true and haven't found any problems.
> >>
> >> You are correct that the IMF requires a dead straight mast - no bend. The
> >> good news is that with the double walls in the mast I 'm not sure you 
> could
> >> bend it if you tried - something else would probably break first. We have
> >> been fussing with rig tuning for the past couple of years and have decided
> >> that we were initially sailing with it too loose. Thanks for all the
> >> suggestions. We'll keep mulling things over as we get ready for launch.
> >>
> >> Mary Lou
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> At 04:22 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >>> Mary Lou,
> >>>
> >>> "Sailing with the 175 all the way out
> >>> (light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the Genoa track"
> >>>
> >>> That seems like the smoking gun to me, so I think you have already
> >>> discovered the problem.  If the forestay is too short and is pulling the
> >> rig
> >>> forward, that certainly could give you lee helm.
> >>>
> >>> Most sails are designed and cut to power up at the forward most Genoa car
> >>> position.  For example, with the Genoa cars all the way forward and going
> >>> close hauled, when you head up the Genoa should break evenly along the
> >> luff,
> >>> top to bottom.  With this set up to depower, instead of furling,  you can
> >>> just pull the Genoa car back and the top leech opens and spills air.
> >>> Because your entire rig is so far forward, to get the luff to break 
> evenly
> >>> you have already moved the Genoa car all the way aft and have no room
> >>> remaining to adjust sheet leads aft.  Your existing 175 is probably cut
> >> just
> >>> fine, but on too short a forestay pulling the top of the mast too far
> >>> forward.
> >>>
> >>> To correct this tuning problem you could determine exactly how much 
> longer
> >>> the forestay needs to be so that the clew of the 175, when close-hauled,
> >>> trims near the front of the Genoa tracks. I'll bet you and Fred could do
> >>> this in the backyard, on a calm day, with the rig up and 175 fully out.
> >> Try
> >>> to get the boat's waterline reasonably level with the trailer jacks (this
> >> is
> >>> not critically important).  Don't attach the forward lower shrouds (to
> >> allow
> >>> the mast to learn aft) and get a 15' or so piece of strong line, like 
> 5/32
> >>> spectra, that you could loop between the bottom forestay fitting and the
> >>> stem head fitting 3 or 4 times, for a good purchase.  Tie this off 
> and then
> >>> take up loose tension with the backstays.  When you have increased 
> the mast
> >>> rake so that your 175 clew trims forward on the tracks, you'll know 
> exactly
> >>> how much longer (than your existing) to order a new forestay.
> >>>
> >>> As far as this port/starboard lee helm variance thing goes, have you
> >> checked
> >>> you rig for "trueness"?  (You might want to do this first, so you'll know
> >> if
> >>> it really is way out of adjustment before you try the forestay thing):
> >> With
> >>> your boat rigged on the trailer, attach a tape measure to a masthead
> >> halyard
> >>> and lock off the halyard.  Then, with tape tight, measure to the 
> starboard
> >>> deck and then to the port deck, being sure to measure to 
> corresponding same
> >>> spots.  A boat with a "true" mast will result in equal measurements.  If
> >>> yours is way out, that could be the culprit.
> >>>
> >>> I am not a rig tuning expert by any means.  I suspect the IMF main 
> probably
> >>> always requires a dead straight mast, so as not to mess up the internal
> >>> roller.  There is a lot of reference material available about how to do
> >> tune
> >>> rigs.  I have read that too loose a rig can be dangerous because it 
> allows
> >>> large forces to develop when gusts and waves combine.  Too tight a 
> rig just
> >>> overstresses the hull.  Like Goldilocks' porridge, your rig should be 
> tuned
> >>> "just right".. A quick Google search tuned up plenty of resources (tapes,
> >>> books) and some looked pretty good.
> >>>
> >>> I hope some of this is helpful to you.
> >>>
> >>> Fair Winds,
> >>>
> >>> PT
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Peter,
> >>> Our lee helm is more noticeable in light air - though even in higher
> >>> windspeeds we need to furl with the helm in mind. It is more prominent on
> >>> port tack - maybe something to do with the big outboard on the port stern
> >>> or the heavy galley to starboard or....?  We seem to have more issues 
> than
> >>> other R22s. I've heard a number of reports of lee helm or neutral in 
> light
> >>> air but we've had significant lee helm at 10 knots. We've made lots of
> >>> changes with weight distribution, making sure the centerboard drops 
> all the
> >>> way and tightening the backstays. Some of these improved the 
> situation but
> >>> it's still there. This year we're going to let the forestay out a 
> notch at
> >>> the masthead. We meant to do it last year but forgot and it wasn't enough
> >>> of a problem to drop the mast again. Sailing with the 175 all the way out
> >>> (light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the genoa 
> track. Are
> >>> you suggesting that with it partially furled we should keep the cars 
> a bit
> >>> further aft than we might ordinarily? We'll have to try to remember that.
> >>> As might be expected, we also can make improvements playing with the
> >>> traveler. We didn't get many opportunities to sail in steady winds last
> >>> year so most of our playing around was from the year before.
> >>>
> >>> Not really sure about our ideal big genoa. For a long time I thought it
> >>> would be smaller than a 175 but we had 6 or 7 sails this past year where
> >>> the 175 was just perfect. Don't know if we'd have done nearly as well 
> with
> >>> a 155 or 160 but maybe so. It would definitely be lighter than the 
> current
> >>> very heavy sailcloth. The heaviness is necessary I suppose if you are 
> never
> >>> going to change sails but I like the idea of having several.  I'll be
> >>> interested to hear what Wally thinks once he has his new sail - 
> whatever it
> >>> is.
> >>>
> >>> Mary Lou
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> At 12:58 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >>>> Mary Lou,
> >>>>
> >>>> Just a thought...   To get rid of lee helm with your 175, have you tried
> >>>> moving the genoa lead tack point much farther aft on the genoa track?
> >> This
> >>>> should spill air from the top of the sail, lower the headsail's 
> center of
> >>>> effort, and, combined with an appropriate amount of furling for the
> >>>> conditions, perhaps help to balance the helm.  I agree that you would
> >> also
> >>>> want to keep as much main out as possible, as you suggested, to maintain
> >>> the
> >>>> Center of  Effort  farther aft and that the IMF, with no roach, would
> >> tend
> >>>> to aggravate this condition because it's CE is farther forward.
> >>>>
> >>>> Under what conditions do you develop lee helm?
> >>>>
> >>>> What size and weight would your "ideal big genoa" be?
> >>>>
> >>>> Fair winds,
> >>>>
> >>>> PT
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
> >>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:04 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Wally, we reduce sail well before 20 knots (actual or apparent)
> >> windspeed.
> >>>> Our 175 seems to be the perfect sail from 4 to 10 knots. I suspect we
> >> begin
> >>>> to furl it a little before 10 if it's gusty. I don't think we've ever
> >> tried
> >>>> Bill's method of furling the main more than the genny as we are always
> >>>> trying to get rid of lee helm. For the record we don't like the 175 for
> >>>> much below 4 knots of wind - the sailcloth is just too heavy to keep the
> >>>> sail full in any kind of wave action - that's one of the reasons we went
> >> to
> >>>> the UPS for really light air.
> >>>>
> >>>> My current thinking on an ideal set of sails for our boat and the way we
> >>>> sail would be the UPS, a somewhat lighter big genoa and a heavier
> >> 125-130.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think a standard main with a roach would affect heeling differently
> >> than
> >>>> the IMF main. I also suspect (but don't know) that furling our mains the
> >>>> way we do makes them more susceptible to having them develop a blown out
> >>>> belly and that this may affect heeling as well. I've also noticed 
> that it
> >>>> is easier to get a flatter main with our new through-the-boom outhaul
> >>>> arrangement - we used to have to tie the outhaul off to a horn cleat so
> >> it
> >>>> was not very adjustable on the go.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mary Lou
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> At 10:27 AM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >>>>> I have IMF. I am amazed at the range of comments regarding wind speed
> >> and
> >>>>> sail selection. I don't see how it could matter if I had IMF or
> >> Standard
> >>>>> main. My boat needs sails reduced in 20 plus.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:59:49 -0500
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Standard main or IMF?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: Wally Buck
> >>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:14 AM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My boat must be light or something. At 20 heading upwind my 125 is
> >>> furled
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> keep me off the rail and I am fighting a 30 degree heel.  Most likely
> >>> the
> >>>>>> boom is lowered halfway as well. I like exciting sails as much as
> >> anyone
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> more than most. Too bad you can't try sails out and return them like
> >>>> clothes
> >>>>>> that don't quite fit!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Still have an open mind .....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wally
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:04:45 -0500
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Twice in one day.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Again, Wally, I agree with Rummy.  I rarely furl below 20 knots.  I
> >>> sail
> >>>>>>> the boat upright with minimum heel.  I generally sail alone.  The
> >> 175
> >>>> makes
> >>>>>>> it very easy to come about.  I adjust sail sizes to keep the boat
> >> well
> >>>>>>> balanced.  When I'm sailing in crowded harbors I reduce the size of
> >>> the
> >>>> 175
> >>>>>>> so I can see the traffic better.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> >>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:18 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wally,
> >>>>>>> When you furl depends a lot on your style of sailing and how much
> >>>> ballast
> >>>>>>> (people weight) you have with you. When alone, I never furl until
> >> the
> >>>> winds
> >>>>>>> gust
> >>>>>>> above 20 knots. Below that and I'm comfortable. The 175 is an
> >> awesome
> >>>> sail.
> >>>>>>> Besides looking good, it is an excellent performer in lite air as
> >> Bill
> >>>>>>> mentioned. By the way, I think this is one of the first times anyone
> >>> has
> >>>>>>> agreed with me
> >>>>>>> on the list.....I appreciate your support Bill.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rummy
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
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