lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????

Tue Mar 16 07:18:22 EST 2004

Lloyd,

	I have 127A84.  I have long Genoa tracks and inside tracks.  

                                Ed K

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Crowther
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 11:40 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????

Mary Lou,

My hull number is GBX220115A84.  I'd like to hear from somebody with a
hull
number near that to see if that particular evolution all had long tracks
like mine.  The previous owner may have altered the tracks although he
gave
me rather complete records of the boat and I don't recall any bills for
new
tracks.  He bought the boat new from Sam at Sam's original place of
business
in NY or wherever.  Of course the PO may have ordered them as an option.

I honestly don't know if I have a 150 or 175 Jenny.  I assumed it was a
175
but from what has been said recently it doesn't seem to trim as far aft
as
some people indicate a 175 does.  I intend to measure it when the boat
goes
back in the water in early April.  I do not have an IMF.

I have sailed with the cars back behind the winches, I used to do that a
lot
when I first got the boat.  It still seems to point higher when the cars
are
back beyond the winches but I am sure someone will tell me that is
impossible.  I sail almost 100% single-handed and have never seen
another
Rhodes22 under sail when I was out (mostly during weekdays).
Consequently,
I have never had a chance to compare my boat's performance or pointing
ability with anyone else's configuration.   I was a very competitive
sailor
at one time and raced class boats from when I was in junior high school
all
through the intercollegiate scene right after WWII.  I raced against
many of
the later big names like Ted Hood in college when we all knew a lot more
than we do now.  However, neither Sam nor I will never see 75 again and,
unlike Sam, I have slowed down a lot.  Now I am very happy to bumble
along
in my own little world no matter what size my jib is or how high I can
point.  I just feel lucky that I can still go out at all.  I guess that
puts
me at odds with the rest of the list.  Sobeit.

Lloyd
s/v Uhuru II

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????

Thanks for adding food for thought  Lloyd - I figured that if Peter's
tracks were longer, someone else probably had them too. One never knows
whether a difference is evolution or variation until others chime in.
What
is your headsail and do you ever use those cars that far back?

Mary Lou

At 12:02 AM 3/15/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Mary Lou,
>
>My '84 Rhodes has the same length genoa track as Peter's, i.e.,
extending
>about to the Rhodes 22 nameplate.  I can move the cars well aft of the
>winches.
>
>Lloyd
>s/v Uhuru II
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:27 PM
>Subject: Re: lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>
>
>Peter,
>I think you have a long genoa track (or maybe the right length ;-) ). I
>just spent a while looking at the R22 pics on my hard drive and on the
>rhodes22.org site. Looks like most are about like Fretless though there
is
>a small variation - none as long as yours though.
>
>Fretless was purchased recycled with a new genoa and main by Doyle
>Offshore. Stan and crew set her up and Stan actually sailed her briefly
in
>a moderate breeze. The genoa is on a GBI furler so I suspect there
isn't
>anything unusual with the forestay. Stan has commented that R22s tend
to a
>neutral helm and that it is not uncommon for them to have slight lee
helm
>in light air but that as the winds kick up the lee helm goes away.
>Obviously we've had more of an issue with it than that but we are
working
>on it for just the reasons you list.
>
>Thanks again,
>Mary Lou
>
>At 07:54 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Mary Lou,
> >
> >Given that the board is all the way down and as forward as possible,
then
> >the only way to cure lee helm would be to move the rig aft.  If your
move
> >the rig's Center of Effort aft, the lee helm would reduce, then go
away.
> >Move it far enough and you will have weather helm.  The devil is in
> >determining exactly how much distance to move aft.  I think
lengthening
the
> >forestay is a great place to start.
> >
> >B/T/W, I just looked at a great picture of Fretless, Fred and you
>(attached)
> >showing your big 175 and Genoa tracks.  The tracks do not appear to
extend
> >past the winches.  On Phoenix, the tracks start at about the same
place
as
> >they do on Fretless, but they extend almost to the "Rhodes 22"
nameplate.
I
> >suppose there is a lot of rigging variance among R22s.  If so, it
makes
me
> >wonder if all R22s have the same length forestay and other standing
>rigging.
> >Clearly, the I, J, P and E are set by Phillip Rhodes, but that still
leaves
> >a lot of room for standing rigging adjustment.   I've never seen an
R22
> >specification that includes this information.  Have you or anyone?
> >
> >In one-design classes, sailmakers publish "tuning guides" that
recommend
> >specific lengths for various standing rigging parts, to optimize
trimming
> >their sails.  Perhaps you could contact the sailmaker of your Genoa
and
> >obtain a recommended forestay length and other standing rigging
dimensions
> >for Fretless with the IMF and 175.  This could give you an idea if
your
> >current forestay could be way out.
> >
> >To answer your question about trimming the Genoa more forward than
its
> >current aft position on the tracks, imagine the situation like this:
1)
>the
> >sail is a big triangle, fixed to the stem fitting at the tack, which
cannot
> >move; 2) lengthening the forestay would rotate the sail head aft: 3)
the
> >clew would be correspondingly rotated down toward the deck; 4) this
would
> >move the trim point forward on the Genoa track.
> >
> >Most boats are designed with a slight weather helm as a safety factor
so
in
> >a puff or heavy air, you can count on the boat rounding up to a luff
if
the
> >tiller is let go.  A boat with lee helm just wants to bear off and
take
on
> >more air, if left to its own devices.  Under adverse conditions this
could
> >cause some problems - an uncontrolled and unexpected gybe, for
example.
I
> >think this is a problem worth solving.
> >
> >Fair winds,
> >
> >PT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Peter,
> >I'm not following. I don't think there is any way that the clew of
the
> >genoa will trim forward on the tracks - no matter how far aft we rake
the
> >mast. Closehauled, our 175 trims right to the aft end of our genoa
track
by
> >the winch. I don't believe the inch or so that we can adjust the
forestay
> >(We have a couple of holes left on the adjuster) will make much
difference
> >in where the genoa will trim to  - it might however improve the helm
-
> >that's what we're hoping. I don't think we would want the mast raked
any
> >more than that.
> >
> >In response to your other suggestion, we have measured to make sure
the
> >mast is true and haven't found any problems.
> >
> >You are correct that the IMF requires a dead straight mast - no bend.
The
> >good news is that with the double walls in the mast I 'm not sure you
could
> >bend it if you tried - something else would probably break first. We
have
> >been fussing with rig tuning for the past couple of years and have
decided
> >that we were initially sailing with it too loose. Thanks for all the
> >suggestions. We'll keep mulling things over as we get ready for
launch.
> >
> >Mary Lou
> >
> >
> >
> >At 04:22 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Mary Lou,
> > >
> > >"Sailing with the 175 all the way out
> > >(light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the Genoa
track"
> > >
> > >That seems like the smoking gun to me, so I think you have already
> > >discovered the problem.  If the forestay is too short and is
pulling
the
> >rig
> > >forward, that certainly could give you lee helm.
> > >
> > >Most sails are designed and cut to power up at the forward most
Genoa
car
> > >position.  For example, with the Genoa cars all the way forward and
going
> > >close hauled, when you head up the Genoa should break evenly along
the
> >luff,
> > >top to bottom.  With this set up to depower, instead of furling,
you
can
> > >just pull the Genoa car back and the top leech opens and spills
air.
> > >Because your entire rig is so far forward, to get the luff to break
>evenly
> > >you have already moved the Genoa car all the way aft and have no
room
> > >remaining to adjust sheet leads aft.  Your existing 175 is probably
cut
> >just
> > >fine, but on too short a forestay pulling the top of the mast too
far
> > >forward.
> > >
> > >To correct this tuning problem you could determine exactly how much
>longer
> > >the forestay needs to be so that the clew of the 175, when
close-hauled,
> > >trims near the front of the Genoa tracks. I'll bet you and Fred
could
do
> > >this in the backyard, on a calm day, with the rig up and 175 fully
out.
> >Try
> > >to get the boat's waterline reasonably level with the trailer jacks
(this
> >is
> > >not critically important).  Don't attach the forward lower shrouds
(to
> >allow
> > >the mast to learn aft) and get a 15' or so piece of strong line,
like
>5/32
> > >spectra, that you could loop between the bottom forestay fitting
and
the
> > >stem head fitting 3 or 4 times, for a good purchase.  Tie this off
and
>then
> > >take up loose tension with the backstays.  When you have increased
the
>mast
> > >rake so that your 175 clew trims forward on the tracks, you'll know
>exactly
> > >how much longer (than your existing) to order a new forestay.
> > >
> > >As far as this port/starboard lee helm variance thing goes, have
you
> >checked
> > >you rig for "trueness"?  (You might want to do this first, so
you'll
know
> >if
> > >it really is way out of adjustment before you try the forestay
thing):
> >With
> > >your boat rigged on the trailer, attach a tape measure to a
masthead
> >halyard
> > >and lock off the halyard.  Then, with tape tight, measure to the
>starboard
> > >deck and then to the port deck, being sure to measure to
corresponding
>same
> > >spots.  A boat with a "true" mast will result in equal
measurements.
If
> > >yours is way out, that could be the culprit.
> > >
> > >I am not a rig tuning expert by any means.  I suspect the IMF main
>probably
> > >always requires a dead straight mast, so as not to mess up the
internal
> > >roller.  There is a lot of reference material available about how
to do
> >tune
> > >rigs.  I have read that too loose a rig can be dangerous because it
>allows
> > >large forces to develop when gusts and waves combine.  Too tight a
rig
>just
> > >overstresses the hull.  Like Goldilocks' porridge, your rig should
be
>tuned
> > >"just right".. A quick Google search tuned up plenty of resources
(tapes,
> > >books) and some looked pretty good.
> > >
> > >I hope some of this is helpful to you.
> > >
> > >Fair Winds,
> > >
> > >PT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Peter,
> > >Our lee helm is more noticeable in light air - though even in
higher
> > >windspeeds we need to furl with the helm in mind. It is more
prominent
on
> > >port tack - maybe something to do with the big outboard on the port
stern
> > >or the heavy galley to starboard or....?  We seem to have more
issues
>than
> > >other R22s. I've heard a number of reports of lee helm or neutral
in
>light
> > >air but we've had significant lee helm at 10 knots. We've made lots
of
> > >changes with weight distribution, making sure the centerboard drops
all
>the
> > >way and tightening the backstays. Some of these improved the
situation
>but
> > >it's still there. This year we're going to let the forestay out a
notch
>at
> > >the masthead. We meant to do it last year but forgot and it wasn't
enough
> > >of a problem to drop the mast again. Sailing with the 175 all the
way
out
> > >(light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the genoa
track.
>Are
> > >you suggesting that with it partially furled we should keep the
cars a
>bit
> > >further aft than we might ordinarily? We'll have to try to remember
that.
> > >As might be expected, we also can make improvements playing with
the
> > >traveler. We didn't get many opportunities to sail in steady winds
last
> > >year so most of our playing around was from the year before.
> > >
> > >Not really sure about our ideal big genoa. For a long time I
thought it
> > >would be smaller than a 175 but we had 6 or 7 sails this past year
where
> > >the 175 was just perfect. Don't know if we'd have done nearly as
well
>with
> > >a 155 or 160 but maybe so. It would definitely be lighter than the
>current
> > >very heavy sailcloth. The heaviness is necessary I suppose if you
are
>never
> > >going to change sails but I like the idea of having several.  I'll
be
> > >interested to hear what Wally thinks once he has his new sail -
whatever
>it
> > >is.
> > >
> > >Mary Lou
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 12:58 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Mary Lou,
> > > >
> > > >Just a thought...   To get rid of lee helm with your 175, have
you
>tried
> > > >moving the genoa lead tack point much farther aft on the genoa
track?
> >This
> > > >should spill air from the top of the sail, lower the headsail's
center
>of
> > > >effort, and, combined with an appropriate amount of furling for
the
> > > >conditions, perhaps help to balance the helm.  I agree that you
would
> >also
> > > >want to keep as much main out as possible, as you suggested, to
>maintain
> > >the
> > > >Center of  Effort  farther aft and that the IMF, with no roach,
would
> >tend
> > > >to aggravate this condition because it's CE is farther forward.
> > > >
> > > >Under what conditions do you develop lee helm?
> > > >
> > > >What size and weight would your "ideal big genoa" be?
> > > >
> > > >Fair winds,
> > > >
> > > >PT
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
> > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:04 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Wally, we reduce sail well before 20 knots (actual or apparent)
> >windspeed.
> > > >Our 175 seems to be the perfect sail from 4 to 10 knots. I
suspect we
> >begin
> > > >to furl it a little before 10 if it's gusty. I don't think we've
ever
> >tried
> > > >Bill's method of furling the main more than the genny as we are
always
> > > >trying to get rid of lee helm. For the record we don't like the
175
for
> > > >much below 4 knots of wind - the sailcloth is just too heavy to
keep
>the
> > > >sail full in any kind of wave action - that's one of the reasons
we
>went
> >to
> > > >the UPS for really light air.
> > > >
> > > >My current thinking on an ideal set of sails for our boat and the
way
>we
> > > >sail would be the UPS, a somewhat lighter big genoa and a heavier
> >125-130.
> > > >
> > > >I think a standard main with a roach would affect heeling
differently
> >than
> > > >the IMF main. I also suspect (but don't know) that furling our
mains
>the
> > > >way we do makes them more susceptible to having them develop a
blown
>out
> > > >belly and that this may affect heeling as well. I've also noticed
that
>it
> > > >is easier to get a flatter main with our new through-the-boom
outhaul
> > > >arrangement - we used to have to tie the outhaul off to a horn
cleat
so
> >it
> > > >was not very adjustable on the go.
> > > >
> > > >Mary Lou
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >At 10:27 AM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >I have IMF. I am amazed at the range of comments regarding wind
speed
> >and
> > > > >sail selection. I don't see how it could matter if I had IMF or
> >Standard
> > > > >main. My boat needs sails reduced in 20 plus.
> > > > >
> > > > >Wally
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > > >>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > > >>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:59:49 -0500
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Standard main or IMF?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Bill Effros
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>----- Original Message -----
> > > > >>From: Wally Buck
> > > > >>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > >>Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:14 AM
> > > > >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>My boat must be light or something. At 20 heading upwind my
125 is
> > >furled
> > > >to
> > > > >>keep me off the rail and I am fighting a 30 degree heel.  Most
>likely
> > >the
> > > > >>boom is lowered halfway as well. I like exciting sails as much
as
> >anyone
> > > >and
> > > > >>more than most. Too bad you can't try sails out and return
them
like
> > > >clothes
> > > > >>that don't quite fit!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Still have an open mind .....
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Wally
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > > >> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > > >> >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:04:45 -0500
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Twice in one day.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Again, Wally, I agree with Rummy.  I rarely furl below 20
knots.
>I
> > >sail
> > > > >> >the boat upright with minimum heel.  I generally sail alone.
The
> >175
> > > >makes
> > > > >> >it very easy to come about.  I adjust sail sizes to keep the
boat
> >well
> > > > >> >balanced.  When I'm sailing in crowded harbors I reduce the
size
>of
> > >the
> > > >175
> > > > >> >so I can see the traffic better.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Bill Effros
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> >From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> > > > >> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > >> >Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:18 PM
> > > > >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Wally,
> > > > >> >When you furl depends a lot on your style of sailing and how
much
> > > >ballast
> > > > >> >(people weight) you have with you. When alone, I never furl
until
> >the
> > > >winds
> > > > >> >gust
> > > > >> >above 20 knots. Below that and I'm comfortable. The 175 is
an
> >awesome
> > > >sail.
> > > > >> >Besides looking good, it is an excellent performer in lite
air
as
> >Bill
> > > > >> >mentioned. By the way, I think this is one of the first
times
>anyone
> > >has
> > > > >> >agreed with me
> > > > >> >on the list.....I appreciate your support Bill.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Rummy
> > > > >> >__________________________________________________
> > > > >> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >> >__________________________________________________
> > > > >> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >>
> > > >
>>_________________________________________________________________
> > > > >>Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of
1!
> > > > >>(Limited-time Offer)
> > > >http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
> > > > >>
> > > > >>__________________________________________________
> > > > >>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >>__________________________________________________
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> > > >
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