[Rhodes22-list] Richard Day's Political Bar Talk

Sun May 2 15:50:57 EDT 2004

Richard,
	Have you never heard of Greed?  If there was money to be made, there
would be many trying to make it, regardless of who is president.
   	Now under a dictatorship the government can direct that people use
alcohol or hydrogen as a fuel source.  But even with gas at its current
prices, it is still cheaper than alternatives.  That does not make it right
or best, just cheapest.  What politician would put a dollar a gallon tax on
fuel and expect to stay in office.  Did you miss the example of Gray Davis
and the triple car tax.  
	If you have the persuasive ability to convince the voters of your
case, then run for office.  What state do you live in?  Surely the local
house member is up for reelection.  Get on the ballot and lead.
                                      Ed K
P.S. I am a volunteer for a guy running for the U.S. Senate.  And is opinion
is not in line with the NRC.                                  

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Richard and Sherry
Day
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 9:49 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Richard Day's Political Bar Talk

Ed,  been tried already isn't good enough and with the cost of gas getting
higher it makes alternative fuels price compatible.  To make it work
successfully, though, requires a strong tone/commitment from the President
and we are not going to get it from this one.
  My cards say this war is ultimately about black gold and that $143 billion
and 732 souls are assets lost forever; spent with no benefit to eliminate
the true problem.....My outlook and priorities are different from the guy in
the White House.  To be flippant $143 billion would buy a lot of windmills.
Richard Day

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of ed kroposki
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 7:46 AM
To: dayz at lisco.com; 'The Rhodes 22 mail list'
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Richard Day's Political Bar Talk

Richard:

	Your comments sound very good and reasonable, so much so that it has
already been tried.  The problem is cost.  People being people buy the
cheapest gas (vehicle fuel) available.  When you start using alternative
fuels, they cost more.  That is why Slim wants Roger to get his degree and
start his corn to energy project.
	Alternative energy sources are being put to work everyday.  See:
http://www.nrel.gov

     Ed K

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Richard and Sherry
Day
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 1:55 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics

Hey fellows I'm gonna blow some more smoke to this bar talk.  By some news
reports it has cost us $143 BILLION and counting so far for the Iraq war.
  What would $143 billion have done towards creating a comprehensive
renewable energy source/infrastructure?  The word "independence" comes to
mind.  We wouldn't have to worry about restrictions of oil supply or
outdated electrical grids causing blackouts in our cities.
  Spending that $143 billion on renewable energy plans would have been a
win-win situation.
  It would probably mean a restructuring of wealth and power and a whole lot
of old oil portfolios dwindle, oops, I suspect there would be some who would
not want this to happen.  Let's see, maybe.... Bush, Bandar, Cheney, Baker?
  Pass me another sasparilla :):)    Richard Day

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:07 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics

Rik,

The failure of the electrical distribution grid in the midwest last summer
provides a classic example of how interconnected and vulnerable our
civilization has become.  One 500,000 VAC transmission line near Cleveland,
OH overloads on a hot summer afternoon, trips offline, & triggers a
cascading failure in the grid that eventually affects 50,000 square miles &
50 million people!  Remember those pictures of thousands of people walking
out of Manhatten across the Brooklin Bridge & thousands more sleeping in
lobbies because they couldn't get out of New York City?  When the electrical
grid went down, the subways quit, there was no water, the traffic lights
quit working.  New York City instantly became one of the worst places in the
world to live.

The bulk of the world's population lives in or near large cities.  Without
modern technology to supply clean water, sanitation, electricity, fuels,
food, medicine, & all the other consumables required for daily living; how
do you support millions of people crouded together in a modern metropolitan
area like New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc?  The answer is that you can't
& that's where a rapid human population die off would occur in the event of
a serious interuption in energy supplies.

Your observation re the decentralization of manufacturing is quite correct.
However, I am more concerned with the way we've moved whole sectors of our
manufacturing capability offshore.  We're rapidly getting to the point of
not even being able to manufacture a tin can here in the United States.
This strategy seems incredibly short-sighted & intrinsically vulnerable to
terrorism.  It all works fine & companies reap tremendous profits from low
offshore production costs.  Consumers also benefit from lower prices; but,
only so long as global transportation is reliable & cheap.  Put one glitch
in the energy supply &/or the movement of goods & services & we are in deep
do-do!

As tragic as terrorist attacks like 9/11 & the recent train bombing in
Madris, Spain were; we should all be much more afraid of attacks on our
infrastructure & energy supplies.  Our civilization is really a house of
cards & it wouldn't take very much to topple it.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rik Sandberg" <sanderico at earthlink.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics

> Thanks Roger, for a much needed dose of reality.
>
> That was very well put, as usual.
>
> I have been watching our manufacturing spread out in this country since I
have
> been involved in the transportation business, about thirty years now.
Fewer,
> but larger factories and shops, spread further and further apart. This has
> happened because transportation lately has been cheaper than owning and
> operating many smaller facilities. We are to the point now where, if
someone
> were to shut off or severely restrict the flow of oil in this country, we
> would be on our knees (out of groceries) so quick, it would make our heads
> spin.
>
> Now, I'm not saying that we couldn't get back to a more localized system
like
> we had in years past. But, It took many years to get to where we're at
now,
> it will take many more to get back. We better hope that some unpredictable
> middle eastern oil sheik doesn't decide to hold us hostage for his oil. We
> need, if not friends, at least reasonable people in control of this stuff.
>
> Think about it people. Go down to your local bakery and buy a loaf of
bread.
> There you go......you can't, because you don't have a local bakery
anymore,
> or a local anything else either. Look around, there are many, MANY other
> examples of this anywhere you care to look.
>
> This is only one aspect of our dependence on oil.
>
> Rik
>
> On Fri, Apr 30 2004 06:20 pm, Roger Pihlaja wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > The world population is currently at about 6.2 billion people &
continuing
> > to grow exponentially.  Depending upon which study you believe, that's
> > about 2X - 3X the size of the population that could be supported W/O
modern
> > technology.  Like it or not, that means transportation, energy systems,
> > infrastructure, & products that run on crude oil.  If the civilized
world
> > does not take steps to assure the uninterrupted flow of crude oil from
the
> > Middle East; then, more people are going to have to die off than have
died
> > in all of the wars and all of the plagues throughout human history
> > combined! Please keep that in mind as you go on & on about how there
should
> > be no blood for oil.  The plain, unvarnished, irrefutable, inescapable
> > truth is that OIL IS BLOOD!  Wrap your arms around that concept & learn
to
> > deal with it.  Any other attitude is so naive that it must be considered
> > childish. For everything else that G.W. Bush has done wrong, he clearly
> > understands that basic truth.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
> >
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > I wouldn't call Bush's taking us to war over false hoods a "minor
lapse".
> > > Talk about understatement!
> > >
> > > I agree that the French and Russians were on the take. At least when
the
> > > French and Russian's were on the take no Americans were getting
killed. I
> > > have said all along this war is about oil and Paul's post supports my
> > > view point. WMD, human rights, freedom and so on all sound good but if
> > > there wasn't a drop of oil in the area the US, France, and Russia
> > > wouldn't give
> >
> > a
> >
> > > flip.So now we are at "war " and the US controls the oil. I don't see
how
> > > this is a big improvement.
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > > >From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
> > > >Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:25:08 -0700 (PDT)
> > > >
> > > >Very interesting, Paul.  You know, I figured it was
> > > >only a matter of time before this came out.  A country
> > > >such a French putting monetary issue before the safety
> > > >of the world.  We should all get down on our knees &
> > > >thank God that we have our President (and a GREAT
> > > >President at that) & Tony Blair over in England that
> > > >was willing to take a stand for whats right!!!!!!!!!!
> > > >Where me a flag; I feel like saluting it:-)
> > > >Steve
> > > >
> > > >--- pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net wrote:
> > > > > Forgive me if you receive this twice.  I
> > > > > accidentally left out the subject
> > > > > on the first try. - Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > April 28, 2004 -- ANYONE who pines for genuine
> > > > > international
> > > > > multilateralism would do well to follow the bribes
> > > > > now being uncovered in
> > > > > the United Nations' Oil-for- Food scandal.
> > > > > Why did France and Russia oppose efforts to topple
> > > > > Saddam Hussein's regime?
> > > > > And why did they press constantly, throughout the
> > > > > '90s, for an expansion of
> > > > > Iraqi oil sales? Was it their empathy for the
> > > > > starving children of that
> > > > > impoverished nation? Their desire to stop the United
> > > > > States from arrogantly
> > > > > imposing its vision upon the Middle East?
> > > > >
> > > > > It now looks like they it was simply because they
> > > > > were on the take. Saddam
> > > > > was their cash cow. If President Bush has suffered
> > > > > some discredit over his
> > > > > apparently false - but not disingenuous - claims of
> > > > > Iraqi weapons of mass
> > > > > destruction, the lapse is minor compared to the
> > > > > outright personal
> > > > > selfishness and criminality that appears to have
> > > > > motivated many of those
> > > > > who opposed his efforts to rid the world of one of
> > > > > its worst dictators.
> > > > >
> > > > > Throughout the '90s, France and Russia badgered the
> > > > > United States and
> > > > > Britain to increase Iraqi oil production. President
> > > > > Bill Clinton and Prime
> > > > > Minister Tony Blair fought them at each step, but
> > > > > then reluctantly gave
> > > > > way. First Iraq was allowed to sell 500,000 barrels
> > > > > daily. Then, on Franco-
> > > > > Russian insistence, it was raised to 1 million, then
> > > > > to 2 million and,
> > > > > finally, to 3 million barrels a day.
> > > > >
> > > > > Each time, America and Britain - the nations now
> > > > > accused of coveting Iraqi
> > > > > oil - resisted the increases in Iraqi production and
> > > > > urged tighter controls
> > > > > over the program. Each time, the French and the
> > > > > Russians prattled on about
> > > > > the rights of Iraqi sovereignty and the need to feed
> > > > > the children.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now we know why the French and Russians were so
> > > > > insistent. Iraqi government
> > > > > documents (leaked to the Baghdad newspaper Al Mada)
> > > > > list at least 270
> > > > > individuals and entities who got vouchers allowing
> > > > > them to sell Iraqi oil -
> > > > > and to keep much of the money. These vouchers, and
> > > > > the promise of instant
> > > > > great wealth they carried with them, bought vital
> > > > > support in the United
> > > > > Nations to let Saddam stay in power.
> > > > >
> > > > > The list of those receiving these bribes includes
> > > > > France's former French
> > > > > Interior Minister Charles Pasqua (who's a leader of
> > > > > Chirac's party) and
> > > > > Patrick Maugein, the head of the French Oil firm
> > > > > Soco International.
> > > > > France's former U.N. ambassador, Jean-Bernard
> > > > > Merimee, got vouchers to sell
> > > > > 11 million barrels.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In Russia, the payoff chain reached right into the
> > > > > "office of the Russian
> > > > > president." President Vladimir Putin's Peace and
> > > > > Unity Party also got
> > > > > vouchers, as did the Soviet-era Prime Minister
> > > > > Nikolai Ryzhkov and the
> > > > > Russian Orthodox Church. Nationalist leader Vladimir
> > > > > Zhirinovsky shared in
> > > > > the largesse.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not to be left behind, the Rev. Jean Marie Benjamin
> > > > > of the Vatican got the
> > > > > rights to sell 4.5 million barrels as recompense for
> > > > > setting up a meeting
> > > > > between Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz and the
> > > > > pope.
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed, the list indicates that Benon Sevan, the
> > > > > United Nations official in
> > > > > charge of the Oil-for-Food program. received
> > > > > vouchers. He denies the
> > > > > charge, but has decided to retire next month anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At the start of the Oil-for-Food program, America
> > > > > and Britain proposed that
> > > > > the money flow only to accounts entirely controlled
> > > > > by the United Nations.
> > > > > Soon this standard was lowered to include accounts
> > > > > not actually controlled
> > > > > by the United Nations, but only monitored by it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then-Sen. Frank Murkowski (R-Alaska) warned that
> > > > > "oil is fungible" and
> > > > > noted that once Iraq was allowed to pump and sell
> > > > > it, Saddam could sell all
> > > > > he wanted outside of officially sanctioned channels
> > > > > and nobody could tell
> > > > > which black liquid was legal and which not. But
> > > > > nobody imagined that there
> > > > > were actual bribes going to specific French, Russian
> > > > > and U.N. officials as
> > > > > part of the program.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now it appears that Secretary-General Kofi Annan's
> > > > > sanctimonious posturing
> > > > > may have concealed oil bribes which reached high up
> > > > > in the ranks of the
> > > > > U.N. organization itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > The defect of international coalitions is that they
> > > > > include the just and
> > > > > the unjust, the bribed and the honest, the
> > > > > democratic and the autocratic.
> > > > > And their members cannot be trusted equally. The
> > > > > group that stood up and
> > > > > backed the invasion of Iraq was nicknamed "the
> > > > > Coalition of the Willing."
> > > > > Now it appears it was also "the Coalition of the
> > > > > Honest."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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