[Rhodes22-list] Oil was (reply to Wally's Politics)

Tue May 4 11:20:53 EDT 2004

Gee,
       If we had opened up all the oil fields onshore and off shore without
interference from the environmentalists a long time ago, we wouldn't be
having this tedious discussion.    There wouldn't be any oil, we could be
importing 90% of out oil to fuel our Hummers, praise be Allah.  Foreign or
domestic it is a finite resource.  Hey 150 years ago we had a 1,000 years of
land and resources to expand into, where did it go?

Chris G
SV Passion (no longer Trepa)
'83

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Alm <salm at mn.rr.com>
To: Rhodes <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] reply to Wally's Politics


>Steve,
>
>I traveled a lot throughout the Dakotas and Montana and I can attest to the
>fact that there are hundreds, maybe thousands of oil wells lying idle in
>that area.  There's a great deal of oil in that region.  Why are they idle?
>It's got nothing to do with the dems or the environmentalists! It's the
>economics.  It's less expensive to import foreign oil than it is to produce
>it here in the US.  If prices continue to rise, there may come a point at
>which it will become cost-effective to uncap the wells in the Dakotas and
>Montana and elsewhere, but at this point, it's wiser to buy it from the
>middle east.
>
>Drilling in Alaska is nothing but redundant at this point. We don't need
>Alaskan oil.  We have plenty.  The only reason Bush wants to drill in
Alaska
>is to benefit his Texas oil buddies that put him in office.  Mark my
>word--if he passes the Alaska drilling bill, who do you think will get the
>contract?  A North Dakota company?  Yeah, right!
>
>Slim
>
>On 5/3/04 11:00 AM, "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Roger - you shouldn' unset poor Wally like that.  War
>> is for Oil; Wally is lible to start believing that:-)
>>
>> For the record, the US is the 3rd largest producer of
>> Oil in the World.  Yes, we import a lot of oil and
>> natrual gas but those are the only two.  All other
>> energy sources, the US is self reliant.
>>
>> Also for the record, we don't need the middle east
>> oil.  We have the cability to produce our own
>> stockpiles there in the US.  The fact that we don't;
>> just thank your Democrats & Enviormentalist.  Also, we
>> can produce enough energy to last 250 years if we
>> swithch over to utilize Coal.
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --- ed kroposki <ekroposki at charter.net> wrote:
>>> Wally:
>>>
>>> For those with no connection to New York City, nor
>>> ever having seen
>>> the twin towers, it appears easy to forget the part
>>> of the equation that
>>> deals with terrorist.  Many say Iraq had no
>>> connection.  I beg your pardon.
>>> One terrorist wanted for questioning fled to Iraq
>>> and was given asylum and
>>> sanctuary by Sadaam.
>>> Loud voices say no weapons of mass destruction were
>>> found. Just two
>>> weeks ago in Jordan a plot to use chemical weapons
>>> was stopped in Jordan.
>>> Analyst determined the weapons came to Jordan thru
>>> Syria.  The chemicals
>>> were determined to have been made in Iraq in what
>>> the news media called a
>>> fertilizer factory.
>>> I say it is better to take the fight to terrorist
>>> where they come
>>> from and not allow them to do their dirty tricks in
>>> America.  Maybe you
>>> think the middle of Tennessee is safe.  But where is
>>> Oak Ridge?  Are you
>>> willing to let terrorist get inside and control of
>>> the plant?  I imagine
>>> that they could made a bang there.
>>> This problem is not only about oil.
>>> Humpf!
>>>                Ed K
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Wally Buck
>>> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 7:59 AM
>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
>>>
>>> Roger,
>>>
>>> I would have much more respect for the war
>>> supporters if they all admited
>>> that it was about oil. If you listen to folks like
>>> Steve one can see they
>>> are blinded by party line. To me their viewpoint is
>>> the one that is naive.
>>> They are buying into all of the other reasons like
>>> freedon, WMD, and so on.
>>> Your post supports my belief, that oil is blood and
>>> we are the ones
>>> attacking over it. Some just need to wrap their arms
>>> around that!
>>>
>>> Wally
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
>>>> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:20:27 -0400
>>>>
>>>> Gentlemen,
>>>>
>>>> The world population is currently at about 6.2
>>> billion people & continuing
>>>> to grow exponentially.  Depending upon which study
>>> you believe, that's
>>>> about
>>>> 2X - 3X the size of the population that could be
>>> supported W/O modern
>>>> technology.  Like it or not, that means
>>> transportation, energy systems,
>>>> infrastructure, & products that run on crude oil.
>>> If the civilized world
>>>> does not take steps to assure the uninterrupted
>>> flow of crude oil from the
>>>> Middle East; then, more people are going to have to
>>> die off than have died
>>>> in all of the wars and all of the plagues
>>> throughout human history
>>>> combined!
>>>> Please keep that in mind as you go on & on about
>>> how there should be no
>>>> blood for oil.  The plain, unvarnished,
>>> irrefutable, inescapable truth is
>>>> that OIL IS BLOOD!  Wrap your arms around that
>>> concept & learn to deal with
>>>> it.  Any other attitude is so naive that it must be
>>> considered childish.
>>>> For everything else that G.W. Bush has done wrong,
>>> he clearly understands
>>>> that basic truth.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:40 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't call Bush's taking us to war over
>>> false hoods a "minor
>>>> lapse".
>>>>> Talk about understatement!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that the French and Russians were on the
>>> take. At least when the
>>>>> French and Russian's were on the take no
>>> Americans were getting killed.
>>>> I
>>>>> have said all along this war is about oil and
>>> Paul's post supports my
>>>> view
>>>>> point. WMD, human rights, freedom and so on all
>>> sound good but if there
>>>>> wasn't a drop of oil in the area the US, France,
>>> and Russia wouldn't
>>>> give
>>>> a
>>>>> flip.So now we are at "war " and the US controls
>>> the oil. I don't see
>>>> how
>>>>> this is a big improvement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wally
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:25:08 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very interesting, Paul.  You know, I figured it
>>> was
>>>>>> only a matter of time before this came out.  A
>>> country
>>>>>> such a French putting monetary issue before the
>>> safety
>>>>>> of the world.  We should all get down on our
>>> knees &
>>>>>> thank God that we have our President (and a
>>> GREAT
>>>>>> President at that) & Tony Blair over in England
>>> that
>>>>>> was willing to take a stand for whats
>>> right!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>> Where me a flag; I feel like saluting it:-)
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net wrote:
>>>>>>> Forgive me if you receive this twice.  I
>>>>>>> accidentally left out the subject
>>>>>>> on the first try. - Paul
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> April 28, 2004 -- ANYONE who pines for
>>> genuine
>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>> multilateralism would do well to follow the
>>> bribes
>>>>>>> now being uncovered in
>>>>>>> the United Nations' Oil-for- Food scandal.
>>>>>>> Why did France and Russia oppose efforts to
>>> topple
>>>>>>> Saddam Hussein's regime?
>>>>>>> And why did they press constantly,
>>> throughout the
>>>>>>> '90s, for an expansion of
>>>>>>> Iraqi oil sales? Was it their empathy for
>>> the
>>>>>>> starving children of that
>>>>>>> impoverished nation? Their desire to stop
>>> the United
>>>>>>> States from arrogantly
>>>>>>> imposing its vision upon the Middle East?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It now looks like they it was simply because
>>> they
>>>>>>> were on the take. Saddam
>>>>>>> was their cash cow. If President Bush has
>>> suffered
>>>>>>> some discredit over his
>>>>>>> apparently false - but not disingenuous -
>>> claims of
>>>>>>> Iraqi weapons of mass
>>>>>>> destruction, the lapse is minor compared to
>>> the
>>>>>>> outright personal
>>>>>>> selfishness and criminality that appears to
>>> have
>>>>>>> motivated many of those
>>>>>>> who opposed his efforts to rid the world of
>>> one of
>>>>>>> its worst dictators.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Throughout the '90s, France and Russia
>>> badgered the
>>>>>>> United States and
>>>>>>> Britain to increase Iraqi oil production.
>>> President
>>>>>>> Bill Clinton and Prime
>>>>>>> Minister Tony Blair fought them at each
>>> step, but
>>>>>>> then reluctantly gave
>>>>>>> way. First Iraq was allowed to sell 500,000
>>> barrels
>>>>>>> daily. Then, on Franco-
>>>>>>> Russian insistence, it was raised to 1
>>> million, then
>>>>>>> to 2 million and,
>>>>>>> finally, to 3 million barrels a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Each time, America and Britain - the nations
>>> now
>>>>>>> accused of coveting Iraqi
>>>>>>> oil - resisted the increases in Iraqi
>>> production and
>>>>>>> urged tighter controls
>>>>>>> over the program. Each time, the French and
>>> the
>>>>>>> Russians prattled on about
>>>>>>> the rights of Iraqi sovereignty and the need
>>> to feed
>>>>>>> the children.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now we know why the French and Russians were
>>> so
>>>>>>> insistent. Iraqi government
>>>>>>> documents (leaked to the Baghdad newspaper
>>> Al Mada)
>>>>>>> list at least 270
>>>>>>> individuals and entities who got vouchers
>>> allowing
>>>>>>> them to sell Iraqi oil -
>>>>>>> and to keep much of the money. These
>>> vouchers, and
>>>>>>> the promise of instant
>>>>>>> great wealth they carried with them, bought
>>> vital
>>>>>>> support in the United
>>>>>>> Nations to let Saddam stay in power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The list of those receiving these bribes
>>> includes
>>>>>>> France's former French
>>>>>>> Interior Minister Charles Pasqua (who's a
>>> leader of
>>>>>>> Chirac's party) and
>>>>>>> Patrick Maugein, the head of the French Oil
>>> firm
>>>>>>> Soco International.
>>>>>>> France's former U.N. ambassador,
>>> Jean-Bernard
>>>>>>> Merimee, got vouchers to sell
>>>>>>> 11 million barrels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Russia, the payoff chain reached right
>>> into the
>>>>>>> "office of the Russian
>>>>>>> president." President Vladimir Putin's Peace
>>> and
>>>>>>> Unity Party also got
>>>>>>> vouchers, as did the Soviet-era Prime
>>> Minister
>>>>>>> Nikolai Ryzhkov and the
>>>>>>> Russian Orthodox Church. Nationalist leader
>>> Vladimir
>>>>>>> Zhirinovsky shared in
>>>>>>> the largesse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to be left behind, the Rev. Jean Marie
>>> Benjamin
>>>>>>> of the Vatican got the
>>>>>>> rights to sell 4.5 million barrels as
>>> recompense for
>>>>>>> setting up a meeting
>>>>>>> between Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz
>>> and the
>>>>>>> pope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed, the list indicates that Benon Sevan,
>>> the
>>>>>>> United Nations official in
>>>>>>> charge of the Oil-for-Food program. received
>>>>>>> vouchers. He denies the
>>>>>>> charge, but has decided to retire next month
>>> anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the start of the Oil-for-Food program,
>>> America
>>>>>>> and Britain proposed that
>>>>>>> the money flow only to accounts entirely
>>> controlled
>>>>>>> by the United Nations.
>>>>>>> Soon this standard was lowered to include
>>> accounts
>>>>>>> not actually controlled
>>>>>>> by the United Nations, but only monitored by
>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then-Sen. Frank Murkowski (R-Alaska) warned
>>> that
>>>>>>> "oil is fungible" and
>>>>>>> noted that once Iraq was allowed to pump and
>>> sell
>>>>>>> it, Saddam could sell all
>>>>>>> he wanted outside of officially sanctioned
>>> channels
>>>>>>> and nobody could tell
>>>>>>> which black liquid was legal and which not.
>>> But
>>>>>>> nobody imagined that there
>>>>>>> were actual bribes going to specific French,
>>> Russian
>>>>>>> and U.N. officials as
>>>>>>> part of the program.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now it appears that Secretary-General Kofi
>>> Annan's
>>>>>>> sanctimonious posturing
>>>>>>> may have concealed oil bribes which reached
>>> high up
>>>>>>> in the ranks of the
>>>>>>> U.N. organization itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The defect of international coalitions is
>>> that they
>>>>>>> include the just and
>>>>>>> the unjust, the bribed and the honest, the
>>>>>>> democratic and the autocratic.
>>>>>>> And their members cannot be trusted equally.
>>> The
>>>>>>> group that stood up and
>>>>>>> backed the invasion of Iraq was nicknamed
>>> "the
>>>>>>> Coalition of the Willing."
>>>>>>> Now it appears it was also "the Coalition of
>>> the
>>>>>>> Honest."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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