[Rhodes22-list] Oil was (reply to Wally's Politics)

Wed May 5 11:55:24 EDT 2004

There is a bit of irony it all isn't there?

Chris G
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Oil was (reply to Wally's Politics)

>would that be so bad, it would be forcing the market to use other sources.
Right now environmentalists are fighting windmills around
>me, they will hate tidial, Build some dams? they still mad at glenn cannon.
solar is not thier yet, Nuke plants would do it, but
>issues. Need is the mother of invertion, is will be intresting what the
market will bring.
>
>
>MJM
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Chris Geankoplis" <napoli68 at charter.net>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 1:20 PM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Oil was (reply to Wally's Politics)
>
>
>> Gee,
>>        If we had opened up all the oil fields onshore and off shore
without
>> interference from the environmentalists a long time ago, we wouldn't be
>> having this tedious discussion.    There wouldn't be any oil, we could be
>> importing 90% of out oil to fuel our Hummers, praise be Allah.  Foreign
or
>> domestic it is a finite resource.  Hey 150 years ago we had a 1,000 years
of
>> land and resources to expand into, where did it go?
>>
>> Chris G
>> SV Passion (no longer Trepa)
>> '83
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Steve Alm <salm at mn.rr.com>
>> To: Rhodes <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] reply to Wally's Politics
>>
>>
>> >Steve,
>> >
>> >I traveled a lot throughout the Dakotas and Montana and I can attest to
the
>> >fact that there are hundreds, maybe thousands of oil wells lying idle in
>> >that area.  There's a great deal of oil in that region.  Why are they
idle?
>> >It's got nothing to do with the dems or the environmentalists! It's the
>> >economics.  It's less expensive to import foreign oil than it is to
produce
>> >it here in the US.  If prices continue to rise, there may come a point
at
>> >which it will become cost-effective to uncap the wells in the Dakotas
and
>> >Montana and elsewhere, but at this point, it's wiser to buy it from the
>> >middle east.
>> >
>> >Drilling in Alaska is nothing but redundant at this point. We don't need
>> >Alaskan oil.  We have plenty.  The only reason Bush wants to drill in
>> Alaska
>> >is to benefit his Texas oil buddies that put him in office.  Mark my
>> >word--if he passes the Alaska drilling bill, who do you think will get
the
>> >contract?  A North Dakota company?  Yeah, right!
>> >
>> >Slim
>> >
>> >On 5/3/04 11:00 AM, "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Roger - you shouldn' unset poor Wally like that.  War
>> >> is for Oil; Wally is lible to start believing that:-)
>> >>
>> >> For the record, the US is the 3rd largest producer of
>> >> Oil in the World.  Yes, we import a lot of oil and
>> >> natrual gas but those are the only two.  All other
>> >> energy sources, the US is self reliant.
>> >>
>> >> Also for the record, we don't need the middle east
>> >> oil.  We have the cability to produce our own
>> >> stockpiles there in the US.  The fact that we don't;
>> >> just thank your Democrats & Enviormentalist.  Also, we
>> >> can produce enough energy to last 250 years if we
>> >> swithch over to utilize Coal.
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- ed kroposki <ekroposki at charter.net> wrote:
>> >>> Wally:
>> >>>
>> >>> For those with no connection to New York City, nor
>> >>> ever having seen
>> >>> the twin towers, it appears easy to forget the part
>> >>> of the equation that
>> >>> deals with terrorist.  Many say Iraq had no
>> >>> connection.  I beg your pardon.
>> >>> One terrorist wanted for questioning fled to Iraq
>> >>> and was given asylum and
>> >>> sanctuary by Sadaam.
>> >>> Loud voices say no weapons of mass destruction were
>> >>> found. Just two
>> >>> weeks ago in Jordan a plot to use chemical weapons
>> >>> was stopped in Jordan.
>> >>> Analyst determined the weapons came to Jordan thru
>> >>> Syria.  The chemicals
>> >>> were determined to have been made in Iraq in what
>> >>> the news media called a
>> >>> fertilizer factory.
>> >>> I say it is better to take the fight to terrorist
>> >>> where they come
>> >>> from and not allow them to do their dirty tricks in
>> >>> America.  Maybe you
>> >>> think the middle of Tennessee is safe.  But where is
>> >>> Oak Ridge?  Are you
>> >>> willing to let terrorist get inside and control of
>> >>> the plant?  I imagine
>> >>> that they could made a bang there.
>> >>> This problem is not only about oil.
>> >>> Humpf!
>> >>>                Ed K
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> >>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>> >>> Behalf Of Wally Buck
>> >>> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 7:59 AM
>> >>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger,
>> >>>
>> >>> I would have much more respect for the war
>> >>> supporters if they all admited
>> >>> that it was about oil. If you listen to folks like
>> >>> Steve one can see they
>> >>> are blinded by party line. To me their viewpoint is
>> >>> the one that is naive.
>> >>> They are buying into all of the other reasons like
>> >>> freedon, WMD, and so on.
>> >>> Your post supports my belief, that oil is blood and
>> >>> we are the ones
>> >>> attacking over it. Some just need to wrap their arms
>> >>> around that!
>> >>>
>> >>> Wally
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
>> >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>> >>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
>> >>>> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:20:27 -0400
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Gentlemen,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The world population is currently at about 6.2
>> >>> billion people & continuing
>> >>>> to grow exponentially.  Depending upon which study
>> >>> you believe, that's
>> >>>> about
>> >>>> 2X - 3X the size of the population that could be
>> >>> supported W/O modern
>> >>>> technology.  Like it or not, that means
>> >>> transportation, energy systems,
>> >>>> infrastructure, & products that run on crude oil.
>> >>> If the civilized world
>> >>>> does not take steps to assure the uninterrupted
>> >>> flow of crude oil from the
>> >>>> Middle East; then, more people are going to have to
>> >>> die off than have died
>> >>>> in all of the wars and all of the plagues
>> >>> throughout human history
>> >>>> combined!
>> >>>> Please keep that in mind as you go on & on about
>> >>> how there should be no
>> >>>> blood for oil.  The plain, unvarnished,
>> >>> irrefutable, inescapable truth is
>> >>>> that OIL IS BLOOD!  Wrap your arms around that
>> >>> concept & learn to deal with
>> >>>> it.  Any other attitude is so naive that it must be
>> >>> considered childish.
>> >>>> For everything else that G.W. Bush has done wrong,
>> >>> he clearly understands
>> >>>> that basic truth.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Roger Pihlaja
>> >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
>> >>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:40 AM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Steve,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I wouldn't call Bush's taking us to war over
>> >>> false hoods a "minor
>> >>>> lapse".
>> >>>>> Talk about understatement!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I agree that the French and Russians were on the
>> >>> take. At least when the
>> >>>>> French and Russian's were on the take no
>> >>> Americans were getting killed.
>> >>>> I
>> >>>>> have said all along this war is about oil and
>> >>> Paul's post supports my
>> >>>> view
>> >>>>> point. WMD, human rights, freedom and so on all
>> >>> sound good but if there
>> >>>>> wasn't a drop of oil in the area the US, France,
>> >>> and Russia wouldn't
>> >>>> give
>> >>>> a
>> >>>>> flip.So now we are at "war " and the US controls
>> >>> the oil. I don't see
>> >>>> how
>> >>>>> this is a big improvement.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Wally
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
>> >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Politics
>> >>>>>> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:25:08 -0700 (PDT)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Very interesting, Paul.  You know, I figured it
>> >>> was
>> >>>>>> only a matter of time before this came out.  A
>> >>> country
>> >>>>>> such a French putting monetary issue before the
>> >>> safety
>> >>>>>> of the world.  We should all get down on our
>> >>> knees &
>> >>>>>> thank God that we have our President (and a
>> >>> GREAT
>> >>>>>> President at that) & Tony Blair over in England
>> >>> that
>> >>>>>> was willing to take a stand for whats
>> >>> right!!!!!!!!!!
>> >>>>>> Where me a flag; I feel like saluting it:-)
>> >>>>>> Steve
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --- pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net wrote:
>> >>>>>>> Forgive me if you receive this twice.  I
>> >>>>>>> accidentally left out the subject
>> >>>>>>> on the first try. - Paul
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> April 28, 2004 -- ANYONE who pines for
>> >>> genuine
>> >>>>>>> international
>> >>>>>>> multilateralism would do well to follow the
>> >>> bribes
>> >>>>>>> now being uncovered in
>> >>>>>>> the United Nations' Oil-for- Food scandal.
>> >>>>>>> Why did France and Russia oppose efforts to
>> >>> topple
>> >>>>>>> Saddam Hussein's regime?
>> >>>>>>> And why did they press constantly,
>> >>> throughout the
>> >>>>>>> '90s, for an expansion of
>> >>>>>>> Iraqi oil sales? Was it their empathy for
>> >>> the
>> >>>>>>> starving children of that
>> >>>>>>> impoverished nation? Their desire to stop
>> >>> the United
>> >>>>>>> States from arrogantly
>> >>>>>>> imposing its vision upon the Middle East?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> It now looks like they it was simply because
>> >>> they
>> >>>>>>> were on the take. Saddam
>> >>>>>>> was their cash cow. If President Bush has
>> >>> suffered
>> >>>>>>> some discredit over his
>> >>>>>>> apparently false - but not disingenuous -
>> >>> claims of
>> >>>>>>> Iraqi weapons of mass
>> >>>>>>> destruction, the lapse is minor compared to
>> >>> the
>> >>>>>>> outright personal
>> >>>>>>> selfishness and criminality that appears to
>> >>> have
>> >>>>>>> motivated many of those
>> >>>>>>> who opposed his efforts to rid the world of
>> >>> one of
>> >>>>>>> its worst dictators.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Throughout the '90s, France and Russia
>> >>> badgered the
>> >>>>>>> United States and
>> >>>>>>> Britain to increase Iraqi oil production.
>> >>> President
>> >>>>>>> Bill Clinton and Prime
>> >>>>>>> Minister Tony Blair fought them at each
>> >>> step, but
>> >>>>>>> then reluctantly gave
>> >>>>>>> way. First Iraq was allowed to sell 500,000
>> >>> barrels
>> >>>>>>> daily. Then, on Franco-
>> >>>>>>> Russian insistence, it was raised to 1
>> >>> million, then
>> >>>>>>> to 2 million and,
>> >>>>>>> finally, to 3 million barrels a day.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Each time, America and Britain - the nations
>> >>> now
>> >>>>>>> accused of coveting Iraqi
>> >>>>>>> oil - resisted the increases in Iraqi
>> >>> production and
>> >>>>>>> urged tighter controls
>> >>>>>>> over the program. Each time, the French and
>> >>> the
>> >>>>>>> Russians prattled on about
>> >>>>>>> the rights of Iraqi sovereignty and the need
>> >>> to feed
>> >>>>>>> the children.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Now we know why the French and Russians were
>> >>> so
>> >>>>>>> insistent. Iraqi government
>> >>>>>>> documents (leaked to the Baghdad newspaper
>> >>> Al Mada)
>> >>>>>>> list at least 270
>> >>>>>>> individuals and entities who got vouchers
>> >>> allowing
>> >>>>>>> them to sell Iraqi oil -
>> >>>>>>> and to keep much of the money. These
>> >>> vouchers, and
>> >>>>>>> the promise of instant
>> >>>>>>> great wealth they carried with them, bought
>> >>> vital
>> >>>>>>> support in the United
>> >>>>>>> Nations to let Saddam stay in power.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The list of those receiving these bribes
>> >>> includes
>> >>>>>>> France's former French
>> >>>>>>> Interior Minister Charles Pasqua (who's a
>> >>> leader of
>> >>>>>>> Chirac's party) and
>> >>>>>>> Patrick Maugein, the head of the French Oil
>> >>> firm
>> >>>>>>> Soco International.
>> >>>>>>> France's former U.N. ambassador,
>> >>> Jean-Bernard
>> >>>>>>> Merimee, got vouchers to sell
>> >>>>>>> 11 million barrels.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> In Russia, the payoff chain reached right
>> >>> into the
>> >>>>>>> "office of the Russian
>> >>>>>>> president." President Vladimir Putin's Peace
>> >>> and
>> >>>>>>> Unity Party also got
>> >>>>>>> vouchers, as did the Soviet-era Prime
>> >>> Minister
>> >>>>>>> Nikolai Ryzhkov and the
>> >>>>>>> Russian Orthodox Church. Nationalist leader
>> >>> Vladimir
>> >>>>>>> Zhirinovsky shared in
>> >>>>>>> the largesse.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Not to be left behind, the Rev. Jean Marie
>> >>> Benjamin
>> >>>>>>> of the Vatican got the
>> >>>>>>> rights to sell 4.5 million barrels as
>> >>> recompense for
>> >>>>>>> setting up a meeting
>> >>>>>>> between Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz
>> >>> and the
>> >>>>>>> pope.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Indeed, the list indicates that Benon Sevan,
>> >>> the
>> >>>>>>> United Nations official in
>> >>>>>>> charge of the Oil-for-Food program. received
>> >>>>>>> vouchers. He denies the
>> >>>>>>> charge, but has decided to retire next month
>> >>> anyway.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> At the start of the Oil-for-Food program,
>> >>> America
>> >>>>>>> and Britain proposed that
>> >>>>>>> the money flow only to accounts entirely
>> >>> controlled
>> >>>>>>> by the United Nations.
>> >>>>>>> Soon this standard was lowered to include
>> >>> accounts
>> >>>>>>> not actually controlled
>> >>>>>>> by the United Nations, but only monitored by
>> >>> it.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Then-Sen. Frank Murkowski (R-Alaska) warned
>> >>> that
>> >>>>>>> "oil is fungible" and
>> >>>>>>> noted that once Iraq was allowed to pump and
>> >>> sell
>> >>>>>>> it, Saddam could sell all
>> >>>>>>> he wanted outside of officially sanctioned
>> >>> channels
>> >>>>>>> and nobody could tell
>> >>>>>>> which black liquid was legal and which not.
>> >>> But
>> >>>>>>> nobody imagined that there
>> >>>>>>> were actual bribes going to specific French,
>> >>> Russian
>> >>>>>>> and U.N. officials as
>> >>>>>>> part of the program.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Now it appears that Secretary-General Kofi
>> >>> Annan's
>> >>>>>>> sanctimonious posturing
>> >>>>>>> may have concealed oil bribes which reached
>> >>> high up
>> >>>>>>> in the ranks of the
>> >>>>>>> U.N. organization itself.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The defect of international coalitions is
>> >>> that they
>> >>>>>>> include the just and
>> >>>>>>> the unjust, the bribed and the honest, the
>> >>>>>>> democratic and the autocratic.
>> >>>>>>> And their members cannot be trusted equally.
>> >>> The
>> >>>>>>> group that stood up and
>> >>>>>>> backed the invasion of Iraq was nicknamed
>> >>> "the
>> >>>>>>> Coalition of the Willing."
>> >>>>>>> Now it appears it was also "the Coalition of
>> >>> the
>> >>>>>>> Honest."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
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