[Rhodes22-list]Politics: Muhammed, Prophet of Doom

Thu Oct 14 09:03:01 EDT 2004

According to an interview on Meet The Press with General Tommy Franks, the
location of Bin Laden at the time of the battle of Tora Bora was not known
with any certainty.  The analogy used by General Franks during this
interview was the evidence pointing to Bin Laden being present at Tora Bora
was like one intelligence dot on a page full of dots that placed Bin Laden
elsewhere.  General Franks stood up & took the hit.  He said, he was the
commander on the ground & he made the decision regarding how to pursue the
battle.  President Bush selected General Franks as the theater commander &
empowered him to be a leader.  #1, you can't blame Bush for the decision of
the local commander.  #2, we are only having this discussion because of
20/20 hindsight using data not available at the time.

Would you blame President Lincoln for the disastrous Union losses at the
battle of Cold Harbor near the end of the Civil War?  General Grant screwed
up big time & Union casualties were some of the highest in any single battle
of the entire war.  It doesn't affect the judgement of history that General
Grant was a good military commander & that Lincoln made the correct choice
for a theater commander.  Similarly, General Franks has a distinguished
military career.  But, it appears, in the case of Tora Bora, he took the
incomplete data available at the time & made a poor decision.  That's war,
get over it!

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Politics: Muhammed, Prophet of Doom

> Brad,
>
> You're right about the Tora Bora terrain.  And farther north is the Khyber
> Pass which I don't think has ever been taken by anyone from those who are
> entrenched there.  It's too easy to defend and too hard to attack.  It's
as
> perfect a "hideout" as can be.  The Soviets tried for, what, ten years to
> take the Khyber Pass and couldn't.  Big bombs are no good because nobody,
> including us wants to destroy the only pass through the region.  We may
need
> it ourselves some day.  It's a strategic conundrum.
>
> But I don't think we should have just given up, or sent the Afghan
soldiers
> who were last week's Taliban to do the job.  That was bound to fail.  Bad
> choice by Bush.  We should indeed put the US soldiers on the ground and
let
> the world's most advanced military do its thing.  It wouldn't be an easy
> fight but it's the right fight.  Even a dove like me could get behind
going
> after the REAL organization responsible for 9/11.
>
> Meanwhile, in Iraq, it's come down to the absolute worse case scenario of
> urban house to house fighting.  No good can come of this.  We won't win
> anything that way.  This would be the very definition of a quagmire.  We
are
> now a terrorist magnet in Iraq attracting every suicide bomber that wants
to
> go to Allah and get his virgins.  This shouldn't have happened in Iraqi
> cities where too many innocent civilians are getting kidnapped and/or
> killed.  It would have been better in the caves of Tora Bora.  At least
> there you "know thy enemy."
>
> Slim
>
> On 10/13/04 4:05 PM, "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Brad,
> >
> > What is bull shit???? You don't think attacking Iraq reduced our focus
and
> > capabilities in Afghanistan? Come on Brad get real! As well read as you
are
> > I would thing you would realize that fighting 2 wars (multiple fronts)
> > creates problems. If the take over of Iraq was as quick and easy as Bush
> > expected you might be right. However we under estimated the difficulty
in
> > completing our mission. We screwed this up big time!
> >
> > Sanctions were working. Yes it is true that the oil for food program was
a
> > disaster. As you pointed out Iraq discontinued their WMD programs
because of
> > the sanctions. Now what they may or may not have down when the sanctions
> > ended is just speculation.
> >
> > I will tell you what is bull shit; attacking Iraq because of WMD and
911.
> > You can choose to ignore the facts and buy into the line of BS handed
down
> > from Bush and Cheney. And you expect me to believe that even though we
were
> > sold a bill of goods from Bush the war is justified? You have got to be
> > kidding!!!!
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >
> >> From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Politics:  Muhammed, Prophet of Doom
> >> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
> >>
> >> Wally,
> >>
> >> We agree on this, there is plenty to be nervious
> >> about.  I disagree with you about sanctions working.
> >> They were working for the French, Germans, Russians,
> >> and Chinese, but especially the French.  The
> >> oil-for-food program was working quite well for
> >> Saddam, he continued to build palaces and buy arms. It
> >> didn't stop him from continuing to support terrorists
> >> by paying money to families of Palistiniens who killed
> >> Jews.  The Duelfer report clearly shows Saddam hadn't
> >> given up on WMD, he was just waiting for sanctions to
> >> end.  Saddam's nuclear bomb builder said in the  NY
> >> Times they could re-start the nuclear program in "the
> >> snap of a finger".  WMD is a political problem for
> >> Bush because that's how he sold the war, it doesn't
> >> mean the war wasn't justified.
> >>
> >> This business that everyone talks about of not
> >> concentrating on Bin Laden is Bullshit!  Let me put
> >> that in more family friendly terms, unadulterated pure
> >> Bullshit!  Bin Laden most likely was at Bora Bora.
> >> The Afghans kicked the Soviets ass there.  They had
> >> the terrain, the tunnels, the escape routes, and the
> >> experience. We threw thousands of air sorties against
> >> them.  More boots on the ground would have meant more
> >> dead American soldiers, not a more effective force.
> >> Some of the local militia leaders turned out to be not
> >> trustworthy.  But, to think that we could have thrown
> >> more 20 year-olds at the situation and made a
> >> difference is military foolishness.  It ignores
> >> history, terrain, and reality.  We'll get Bin Laden
> >> but that won't be the end of the problem.  This fight
> >> will last for years.
> >>
> >> Unless of course you believe that terriorism is just a
> >> nuisance, there is no quick solution.
> >>
> >> Brad Haslett
> >> "CoraShen"
> >> --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> Anyone that can look at the world situation & not
> >>> be really really nervous
> >>>> just doesn't grasp the significance of what's going
> >>> & how quickly the
> >>>> situation could deteriorate.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree. The whole thing make me very nervous. I can
> >>> see the current
> >>> situation escalating and dragging on for years. This
> >>> is one of the reasons I
> >>> felt we should have waited a little longer to work
> >>> through the problems in
> >>> Iraq. As we learn more after the fall of Saddam it
> >>> appears there were no
> >>> WMD. It also appears that sanctions were working. We
> >>> should have kept after
> >>> Bin Laden. It seems fairly obvious that we made some
> >>> serious blunders in
> >>> this war.
> >>>
> >>> Wally
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Wally
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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