[Rhodes22-list]Politics: Muhammed, Prophet of Doom

Wally Buck tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Thu Oct 14 10:14:59 EDT 2004 

Roger,

You are describing a single incident in Afghanastan. The overall strategy of 
attacking Iraq when we did is my real problem with this whole war on terror. 
I don't blame Franks. We took our eye of the ball and attacked Iraq. I am 
not second guessing or using 20/20 hindsight. I have said this all along.  
That direction came from the top.

Wally
>From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Politics: Muhammed, Prophet of Doom
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:03:01 -0400
>
>According to an interview on Meet The Press with General Tommy Franks, the
>location of Bin Laden at the time of the battle of Tora Bora was not known
>with any certainty.  The analogy used by General Franks during this
>interview was the evidence pointing to Bin Laden being present at Tora Bora
>was like one intelligence dot on a page full of dots that placed Bin Laden
>elsewhere.  General Franks stood up & took the hit.  He said, he was the
>commander on the ground & he made the decision regarding how to pursue the
>battle.  President Bush selected General Franks as the theater commander &
>empowered him to be a leader.  #1, you can't blame Bush for the decision of
>the local commander.  #2, we are only having this discussion because of
>20/20 hindsight using data not available at the time.
>
>Would you blame President Lincoln for the disastrous Union losses at the
>battle of Cold Harbor near the end of the Civil War?  General Grant screwed
>up big time & Union casualties were some of the highest in any single 
>battle
>of the entire war.  It doesn't affect the judgement of history that General
>Grant was a good military commander & that Lincoln made the correct choice
>for a theater commander.  Similarly, General Franks has a distinguished
>military career.  But, it appears, in the case of Tora Bora, he took the
>incomplete data available at the time & made a poor decision.  That's war,
>get over it!
>
>Roger Pihlaja
>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
>To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 3:46 AM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Politics: Muhammed, Prophet of Doom
>
>
> > Brad,
> >
> > You're right about the Tora Bora terrain.  And farther north is the 
>Khyber
> > Pass which I don't think has ever been taken by anyone from those who 
>are
> > entrenched there.  It's too easy to defend and too hard to attack.  It's
>as
> > perfect a "hideout" as can be.  The Soviets tried for, what, ten years 
>to
> > take the Khyber Pass and couldn't.  Big bombs are no good because 
>nobody,
> > including us wants to destroy the only pass through the region.  We may
>need
> > it ourselves some day.  It's a strategic conundrum.
> >
> > But I don't think we should have just given up, or sent the Afghan
>soldiers
> > who were last week's Taliban to do the job.  That was bound to fail.  
>Bad
> > choice by Bush.  We should indeed put the US soldiers on the ground and
>let
> > the world's most advanced military do its thing.  It wouldn't be an easy
> > fight but it's the right fight.  Even a dove like me could get behind
>going
> > after the REAL organization responsible for 9/11.
> >
> > Meanwhile, in Iraq, it's come down to the absolute worse case scenario 
>of
> > urban house to house fighting.  No good can come of this.  We won't win
> > anything that way.  This would be the very definition of a quagmire.  We
>are
> > now a terrorist magnet in Iraq attracting every suicide bomber that 
>wants
>to
> > go to Allah and get his virgins.  This shouldn't have happened in Iraqi
> > cities where too many innocent civilians are getting kidnapped and/or
> > killed.  It would have been better in the caves of Tora Bora.  At least
> > there you "know thy enemy."
> >
> > Slim
> >
> > On 10/13/04 4:05 PM, "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > What is bull shit???? You don't think attacking Iraq reduced our focus
>and
> > > capabilities in Afghanistan? Come on Brad get real! As well read as 
>you
>are
> > > I would thing you would realize that fighting 2 wars (multiple fronts)
> > > creates problems. If the take over of Iraq was as quick and easy as 
>Bush
> > > expected you might be right. However we under estimated the difficulty
>in
> > > completing our mission. We screwed this up big time!
> > >
> > > Sanctions were working. Yes it is true that the oil for food program 
>was
>a
> > > disaster. As you pointed out Iraq discontinued their WMD programs
>because of
> > > the sanctions. Now what they may or may not have down when the 
>sanctions
> > > ended is just speculation.
> > >
> > > I will tell you what is bull shit; attacking Iraq because of WMD and
>911.
> > > You can choose to ignore the facts and buy into the line of BS handed
>down
> > > from Bush and Cheney. And you expect me to believe that even though we
>were
> > > sold a bill of goods from Bush the war is justified? You have got to 
>be
> > > kidding!!!!
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> > >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Politics:  Muhammed, Prophet of Doom
> > >> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
> > >>
> > >> Wally,
> > >>
> > >> We agree on this, there is plenty to be nervious
> > >> about.  I disagree with you about sanctions working.
> > >> They were working for the French, Germans, Russians,
> > >> and Chinese, but especially the French.  The
> > >> oil-for-food program was working quite well for
> > >> Saddam, he continued to build palaces and buy arms. It
> > >> didn't stop him from continuing to support terrorists
> > >> by paying money to families of Palistiniens who killed
> > >> Jews.  The Duelfer report clearly shows Saddam hadn't
> > >> given up on WMD, he was just waiting for sanctions to
> > >> end.  Saddam's nuclear bomb builder said in the  NY
> > >> Times they could re-start the nuclear program in "the
> > >> snap of a finger".  WMD is a political problem for
> > >> Bush because that's how he sold the war, it doesn't
> > >> mean the war wasn't justified.
> > >>
> > >> This business that everyone talks about of not
> > >> concentrating on Bin Laden is Bullshit!  Let me put
> > >> that in more family friendly terms, unadulterated pure
> > >> Bullshit!  Bin Laden most likely was at Bora Bora.
> > >> The Afghans kicked the Soviets ass there.  They had
> > >> the terrain, the tunnels, the escape routes, and the
> > >> experience. We threw thousands of air sorties against
> > >> them.  More boots on the ground would have meant more
> > >> dead American soldiers, not a more effective force.
> > >> Some of the local militia leaders turned out to be not
> > >> trustworthy.  But, to think that we could have thrown
> > >> more 20 year-olds at the situation and made a
> > >> difference is military foolishness.  It ignores
> > >> history, terrain, and reality.  We'll get Bin Laden
> > >> but that won't be the end of the problem.  This fight
> > >> will last for years.
> > >>
> > >> Unless of course you believe that terriorism is just a
> > >> nuisance, there is no quick solution.
> > >>
> > >> Brad Haslett
> > >> "CoraShen"
> > >> --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Anyone that can look at the world situation & not
> > >>> be really really nervous
> > >>>> just doesn't grasp the significance of what's going
> > >>> & how quickly the
> > >>>> situation could deteriorate.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I agree. The whole thing make me very nervous. I can
> > >>> see the current
> > >>> situation escalating and dragging on for years. This
> > >>> is one of the reasons I
> > >>> felt we should have waited a little longer to work
> > >>> through the problems in
> > >>> Iraq. As we learn more after the fall of Saddam it
> > >>> appears there were no
> > >>> WMD. It also appears that sanctions were working. We
> > >>> should have kept after
> > >>> Bin Laden. It seems fairly obvious that we made some
> > >>> serious blunders in
> > >>> this war.
> > >>>
> > >>> Wally
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Wally
> > >>>
> > >>>
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
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