[Rhodes22-list] Weber's Analysis of Lee helm

[ed kroposki]

Bob:
	Congratulations!  You have come up with a very different analysis of
the problem.  Could you now suggest a more detailed way to test the fairing
of the centerboard and keel?  
	Does this mean that it is only her centerboard and/or keel?  Is
there a problem in molds for the keel or centerboard?  Could it have been
caused by damage or curing?  
	By fairing, I assume that you are saying that one or the other or
both are not shaped correctly.  If we go to sanding to shape the keel or
centerboard, won't we be getting into the fiberglass?  Can you give a more
detailed analysis?

Ed K	

Ed K
	
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bob Weber
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:13 PM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee helm

Mary Lou, I am inclined to believe your problem is in the fairing of the 
centerboard or keel.  Does the boat sail right on anchor in a current?  In a

calm marina put someone onboard, put the rudder up and give the boat a 
shove.  If it steer right that is your problem.  You may have to repeat this

a few times to ensure accuracy of results.  That meathod worked well on 
fairing the keel on my RC sailboat - of course it was much easier to do 
repeated times.  Another guess is that the piviot for the CB is not 
horizontal and the board retracts at an angle toward the Port Side.  This 
would not manifest the Right turning tendancy until under sail.  Just a 
guess but the testing should be cheap and not require a haul-out.  Good luck

Bob Weber


>From: Mary Lou Troy <mltroy at verizon.net>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee helm
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:26:11 -0400
>
>Thanks Steve (and everyone else) for your thoughts on our boat that wants 
>to go right.
>
>Here's a summary of the problem and the possibilities offered by the group.

>I'm writing this in hopes that if all the ideas are in one place someone 
>will say "what about.....?" and we'll say "eureka..."
>
>We've had lee helm issues with Fretless since we got her. The learning 
>curve learning to sail her and the fluky wind and current conditions on the

>Chesapeake have slowed us down diagnosing the problem.
>
>She has always sailed better on starboard than on port. When we set her up 
>this spring we lengthened the forestay and took up the backstays. In a nice

>breeze with a full main and genoa this gave us a small amount of weather 
>helm on starboard and less lee helm on port. It also made us really pay 
>attention to the difference between her behavior on port and starboard.
>
>Roger mentioned looking at how she sits on her lines and indeed she does 
>have a slight list to starboard sitting in the slip (in spite of the 
>outboard, 7 gallons of gas and the battery all stored to port. Bill Effros 
>said he thought that if the boat was too heavy to port it would turn to 
>starboard. These two thoughts seem to contradict each other but we'll work 
>a bit more on her trim.
>
>Bill & Slim mentioned heel as a contributor to weather helm but I think we 
>heel about the same on port and starboard. Those fluky winds make it hard 
>to tell.
>
>Slim mentioned that in addition to increasing the aft rake of his mast, he 
>experimented with the centerboard and found he could increase weather helm 
>by raising the board. We may play some more with this as Stan's original 
>suggestion to us was to let the board drop a bit more by moving the knot in

>the pennant. That doesn't, however, address the fact that she wants to turn

>to starboard.
>
>Steve mentioned sail trim in heavy air and this is an area where we really 
>don't know as much as we should but we've been playing with the outhaul and

>the traveller and have achieved some improvements in the helm but not in 
>the difference between port and starboard tacks.
>
>Jim Connolly mentioned a similar port/starboard problem but then mentioned 
>that he thought he had a spreader problem that might be contributing. As 
>near as I can tell, our mast is straight and centered. We tune the rig with

>a Loos gauge and have measured with a halyard to the chainplates. We'll 
>take a look at the spreaders though.
>
>Lastly, Steve and Slim mentioned that maybe something was out of whack with

>the keel, the centerboard or the rudder. We'll take a look at those 
>possibilities. There's nothing immediately visible with the keel or the 
>rudder. The centerboard appears to drop cleanly and not bind or thump about

>significantly but we've never taken a really good look at it. Fretless has 
>an unusual repair (?) to her centerboard trunk (there is a flat plate 
>glassed over the forward part of the trunk - between the trunk and the 
>centerboard cap) that prevents us from removing the centerboard in the 
>usual fashion).
>
>Anybody else have any ideas?
>
>Thanks again for helping us think about this.
>
>Mary Lou
>1991 R22 Fretless
>Swan Creek, MD / Ft. Washington, PA
>
>
>
>
>At 06:30 AM 9/15/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>>Mary Lou
>>The board needs to be down when goin to windward or
>>your will drift.  Losening the headstay and raking the
>>mast back but keeping it streight; I don't think will
>>solve any problem.
>>
>>Since this has been a problem since the beginni ng.
>>Maybe it something easy.  Like the rudder not
>>centerred on stern. Maybe rudder not balanced.
>>Posible twist in the rudder blade.  Proper angle of
>>the blade being changed with increase speed.  Could be
>>also that in heavier wind that you are not flating
>>your sails enough.  Just thinking out loud.
>>Steve
>>
>>
>>--- Mary Lou Troy <mltroy at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Slim,
>> > We've had the problem for as long as we've had the
>> > boat. It's been better
>> > or worse depending on how well we set the boat up in
>> > the Spring but it's
>> > only this year that we've realized that the lee helm
>> > / port, weather helm
>> > starboard issue means that the boat is consistently
>> > wanting to turn
>> > right.  This spring when we tuned the rig we used
>> > our spare halyard to
>> > measure to the chainplates and verify that the mast
>> > is straight. We just
>> > eyeballed it in the past.
>> >
>> > One additional factor - for those who are not yet
>> > bored by the whole
>> > subject - the boat is faster by nearly a knot on
>> > starboard.
>> >
>> > As far as we know nothing happened to our keel. It
>> > seems to drop straight
>> > without binding. If we have the boatyard haul it
>> > this year maybe we'll see
>> > if we can drop the board while it's in the slings
>> > and see if we see any
>> > problems.
>> >
>> > Thanks again.
>> >
>> > Mary Lou
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At 03:04 PM 9/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> > >Mary Lou,
>> > >
>> > >You said you checked the mast to see if it's
>> > straight.  Are you just
>> > >eyeballing or have you taken precise measurements?
>> > For a quick test, use
>> > >your topping lift and bring it down to the
>> > chainplates of the upper shrouds
>> > >and compare results port and starboard.
>> > >
>> > >Have you had Fretless out of the water lately and
>> > inspected the under side?
>> > >Maybe something happened your keel.
>> > >
>> > >Slim
>> > >
>> > >On 9/13/04 5:43 PM, "Mary Lou Troy"
>> > <mltroy at verizon.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > At 02:06 PM 9/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> > > >> Mary Lou, I think Bill's on to something here.
>> > The more the boat heels,
>> > > >> the greater
>> > > >> the weather helm.  So maybe you're heeling more
>> > on a starboard tack.
>> > > >
>> > > > Slim, I don't think we heel more on one tack
>> > than the other but we'll check
>> > > > it out next time we have a nice steady breeze.
>> > We certainly have more
>> > > > weather helm when heeled way over but there is
>> > still a distinct difference
>> > > > between port and starboard. The boat always
>> > wants to turn right.
>> > > >
>> > > >> Do you have an inclinometer so you can tell
>> > exactly how much heel you
>> > > >> have?  If
>> > > >> not, can you jury-rig some kind of little plumb
>> > bob--maybe a modified
>> > > >> gimbled drink holder would do.
>> > > >
>> > > > No inclinometer but we'll pay attention.
>> > > >
>> > > >> In lighter air, when your 175% is all the way
>> > out, do you still have
>> > > the lee
>> > > >> helm on port but not starboard?
>> > > >
>> > > > Yes although in light air it's more neutral helm
>> > on starboard and lee helm
>> > > > on port.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks for trying to help us solve this.
>> > > >
>> > > > Mary Lou
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> I'm probably reaching here, but wondering
>> > > >> if, when the jib is reefed in, the roll of
>> > reefed sail cloth at the
>> > > luff has
>> > > >> any effect.  It seems that this would be
>> > negligible if at all. Just
>> > > asking.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Slim
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On 9/13/04 10:32 AM, "Bill Effros"
>> > <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >>> How much does your boat normally heel when you
>> > are sailing?
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Think of an analog clock face if you don't
>> > think in degrees.  If 12
>> > > is not
>> > > >>> heeling at all, where does your mast point
>> > when you are heeling?  1? 2?
>> > > >> 11:30?
>> > > >>> 10:45?
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Bill Effros
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >>> From: Mary Lou Troy
>> > > >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> > > >>> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 10:12 AM
>> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee
>> > helm
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> In light air we'll sit on the low side. In
>> > moderate to heavy winds
>> > > we're on
>> > > >>> the high side. Last time we were out playing
>> > with the helm in light to
>> > > >>> moderate winds on our problematic port tack, I
>> > sat on the port side
>> > > of the
>> > > >>> cabin top. It seemed to make a bit of
>> > difference. One of the problems we
>> > > >>> have in playing with this issue is the
>> > variability of winds, current and
>> > > >>> chop on the Chesapeake in short spaces of
>> > time.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Mary Lou
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> At 09:56 AM 9/13/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>> > > >>>> Mary Lou,
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Where do you sit when you're sailing?
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Bill Effros
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >>>> From: Mary Lou Troy
>> > > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> > > >>>> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:38 AM
>> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee
>> > helm
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Thanks again for everyone's comments.  I'd
>> > appreciate the collective
>> > > brain
>> > > >>>> doing a bit more thinking about our
>> > lopsidedness.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> We did let our forestay out a notch at the
>> > beginning of the s
>> > > >> eason.Keeping
>> > > >>>> the water tank full helps as well. We now
>> > have neutral to a slight
>> > > weather
>> > > >>>> helm on starboard. That's an improvement but
>> > we still have mostly
>> > > lee helm
>> > > >>>> on port so our main concern is getting her
>> > balanced. All measurements
>> > > >>>> indicate that the mast is straight and
>> > centered.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Roger may have a point about trim as Fretless
>> > tends to list slightly to
>> > > >>>> starboard in the slip even with the heavy
>> > Honda 8 on the port side
>> > > of the
>> > > >>>> stern (all that weight (80 lbs) back there
>> > could be a part of the
>> > > issue as
>> > > >>>> well). There's usually seven gallons of gas
>> > under the port bench
>> > > seat and
>> > > >>>> three one gallon jugs of water under the
>> > settee in the cabin as
>> > > well. The
>> > > >>>> battery is under the v-berth to port next to
>> > the water tank which
>> > > overlaps
>> > > >>>> the centerline but is slightly to port. I
>> > suppose that may not be
>> > > >> enough to
>> > > >>>> overcome all those beverages in the cooler. I
>> > think rebalancing is our
>> > > >> next
>> > > >>>> step - maybe we'll try moving the spare
>> > anchor and chain under the
>> > > settee.
>> > > >>>> May need to find some lead weights or
>> > something.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Mary Lou
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> At 07:57 AM 9/6/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>> > > >>>>> Mary Lou,
>> > > >>>>>
>> > > >>>>> How does Fretless sit on her lines when the
>> > boat is tied up to the
>> > > dock?
>> > > >>>>> With no one on board, the boat should should
>> > be level on the
>> > > >> waterline from
>> > > >>>>> side-to-side and slightly down by the bow,
>> > maybe about an inch.  With a
>> > > >>>>> couple of adults in the cockpit, the boat
>> > should sit level on the
>> > > >> waterline
>> > > >>>>> in terms of fore/aft trim.  Before we can
>> > say whether or not
>> > > Fretless is
>> > > >>>>> truely right wing, you will need to shift
>> > ballast around until you
>> > > >> achieve
>> > > >>>>> the above static trim condition.  If the
>> > boat still wants to turn right
>> > > >>>>> after these adjustments; then, you
>> > definitely have a problem.  I
>> > > defer to
>> > > >>>>> Stan as far as likely causes in this case.
>> > > >>>>>
>> > > >>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>> > > >>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> > > >>>>>
>> > > >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >>>>> From: "David Walker"
>> > <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
>> > > >>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 7:06 PM
>> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee
>> > helm
>> > > >>>>>
>> > > >>>>>
>> > > >>>>>> Mary Lou,
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>> There are probably many ways to balance a
>> > Rhodes.  At around 15
>> > > knots I
>> > > >>>>> find
>> > > >>>>>> that combination of about 120% genoa and
>> > the IMF reefed to just
>> > > >>>> exposing a
>> > > >>>>>> sliver of the R22 emblem balances the boat
>> > very well with respect to
>> > > >> helm
>> > > >>>>>> and heeling, especially singled handed.  I
>> > was out yesterday in this
>> > > >>>>>> condition and handily beat a Catalina 22
>> > under its full sail with 4
>> > > >> crew.
>> > > >>>>>> They were having trouble keeping the boat
>> > on its lines with the sails
>> > > >>>>>> properly trimmed.  In general, I find that
>> > less sail, properly
>> > > >> trimmed is
>> > > >>>>>> better than more sailed trimmed to spill
>> > wind.
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>  My Rhodes also seems to sail better with
>> > more forward sail area than
>> > > >>>> aft.
>> > > >>>>>> I most assuredly looks funny that way, but
>> > the helm is neutral as
>> > > >> long as
>> > > >>>>>> the heel is moderate.
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>> Dave W
>> > > >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >>>>>> From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
>> > > >>>>>> To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 5:14 PM
>> > > >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee
>> > helm
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>> Mary Lou,
>> > > >>>>>>> Yes, I said what Stan said I said.  I
>> > raked the mast back by
>> > > extending
>> > > >>>>> the
>> > > >>>>>>> forestay.  It was about 2" or more--sorry
>> > I can't be more
>> > > >>>> precise.  That
>> > > >>>>>>> brings the Center of Effros  8-)  aft and
>> > yields more weather
>> > > >>>> helm.  But
>> > > >>>>>>> that alone wasn't enough.  I started
>> > experimenting with the depth
>> > > of my
>> > > >>>>>>> centerboard and discovered I could create
>> > more weather helm by
>> > > >>>> lessening
>> > > >>>>>> the
>> > > >>>>>>> depth of board.  I have the diamond board
>> > and it seems that
>> > > raising it
>> > > >>>>>>> brings the center of lateral resistance
>> > forward, increasing weather
>> > > >>>>> helm.
>> > > >>>>>>> The amount of board I use varies with the
>> > wind speed, boat speed and
>> > > >>>>> point
>> > > >>>>>>> of sail.  I'm still learning so I can't be
>> > very specific about that
>> > > >>>>> other
>> > > >>>>>>> than to say that the faster the boat
>> > speed, the less board I
>> > > use.  But
>> > > >>>>> if
>> > > >>>>>>> I'm on a close reach, that probably makes
>> > me lose some of my
>> > > footing to
>> > > >>>>>> the
>> > > >>>>>>> lee but I weigh that against the comfort
>> > of the helm.  I just play
>> > > >>>>> around
>> > > >>>>>>> with it until I'm happy.  Although I can't
>> > help you with the
>> > > republican
>> > > >>>>>>> tendency of Fretless--that's a
>> > head-scratcher -- I'd suggest making
>> > > >>>>>>> adjustments to your board and see if that
>> > helps.  Also, I
>> > > sometimes get
>> > > >>>>>> lee
>> > > >>>>>>> helm in light air which changes over to
>> > weather helm in the
>> > > gusts.  The
>> > > >>>>>> more
>> > > >>>>>>> the boat heels, the greater the weather
>> > helm. And lastly, I
>> > > rarely reef
>> > > >>>>> in
>> > > >>>>>>> my IMF main unless it's really blowing.
>> > I'll reef in the 175%
>> > > genny to
>> > > >>>>>>> about 90% before I reef the main.  That
>> > happens when the winds are in
>> > > >>>>> the
>> > > >>>>>>> upper teens.  With winds much higher than
>> > that, I'm usually at
>> > > the dock
>> > > >>>>>>> having a cocktail.  8-)  Speaking of
>> > which, isn't it five o'clock
>> > > >>>>>> somewhere?
>> > > >>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>> Hope this helps,
>> > > >>>>>>> Slim
>> > > >>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>> On 9/5/04 1:48 PM, "stan"
>> > <stan at rhodes22.com> wrote:
>> > > >>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> a few thoughts if it is really a problem
>> >  Slim raked his mast
>> > > aft by
>> > > >>>>>>>> increasing the jib stay about 2" he says.
>> >  the new main with a
>> > > little
>> > > >>>>>> more
>> > > >>>>>>>> sail area might help but that is a big
>> > investment.  If you are
>> > > handy,
>> > > >>>>>> putting
>> > > >>>>>>>> a small extra fin forward of the keel
>> > might tip the scale. Also, I
>> > > >>>>> think
>> > > >>>>>> you
>> > > >>>>>>>> are on the right track about more weight
>> > forward.  I brought my
>> > > >>>>> thinking
>> > > >>>>>> on
>> > > >>>>>>>> this up to the List on two occasions but
>> > drew a blanc response each
>> > > >>>>>> time. I
>> > > >>>>>>>> think more bow in the water is akin to
>> > moving the keel (center of
>> > > >>>>>> effort)
>> > > >>>>>>>> forward and easy to test by having a lot
>> > of guests sit up on the bow
>> > > >>>>> and
>> > > >>>>>> see
>> > > >>>>>>>> what happens to the tiller helm.  Hiring
>> > crew to sit on the bow
>> > > might
>> > > >>>>> be
>> > > >>>>>> a
>> > > >>>>>>>> patentable upgrade - let us know the test
>> > results.
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> stan/gbi
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >>>>>>>> From: Mary Lou Troy
>> > > >>>>>>>> To: stan
>> > > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:18 PM
>> > > >>>>>>>> Subject: you are welcome and turning
>> > right (was Re: book)
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> Stan,
>> > > >>>>>>>> You are very welcome for the book. I do
>> > not have 1,000 more ;-)
>> > > >>>> If you
>> > > >>>>>> do want
>> > > >>>>>>>> additional copies you'll have to contact
>> > Stan Grayson about it.
>> > > He'll
>> > > >>>>>> sell me
>> > > >>>>>>>> additional copies for "personal use" at a
>> > 40% discount which is
>> > > close
>> > > >>>>> to
>> > > >>>>>> what
>> > > >>>>>>>> you can get from Amazon. I'm pleased with
>> > the book (and hope you are
>> > > >>>>>> too).
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> As for my cryptic note about Fretless
>> > being too right - We're not
>> > > >>>>> going
>> > > >>>>>>>> anywhere but Fred and I suspect you may
>> > have sold us a republican
>> > > >>>>> boat.
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> As you know we have had lee helm issues
>> > over the years. Using your
>> > > >>>>>> suggestions
>> > > >>>>>>>> we have been able to produce a nice
>> > neutral to slight weather helm -
>> > > >>>>> on
>> > > >>>>>>>> starboard tack only. On port tack the
>> > adjustments have only
>> > > >>>> produced a
>> > > >>>>>>>> reduction in lee helm. After making sure
>> > the mast was centered
>> > > >>>> and the
>> > > >>>>>> rigging
>> > > >>>>>>>> moderately snug it finally occurred to us
>> > that what the boat was
>> > > >>>> doing
>> > > >>>>>> was
>> > > >>>>>>>> always wanting to turn right. Last time
>> > we had her out we seemed
>> > > >>>> to be
>> > > >>>>>> able to
>> > > >>>>>>>> reduce this tendency slightly and remove
>> > a bit of the lee helm by
>> > > >>>>>> putting my
>> > > >>>>>>>> weight amidships on the port cabin top so
>> > it is possible that we are
>> > > >>>>>> still
>> > > >>>>>>>> dealing with a weight distribution issue.
>> > We'll continue to
>> > > >>>>> investigate
>> > > >>>>>> but
>> > > >>>>>>>> are wondering if you have any other
>> > suggestions for what we might
>> > > >>>>> tinker
>> > > >>>>>> with
>> > > >>>>>>>> to produce a more middle of the rhode
>> > boat.
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> Mary Lou
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>> At 04:44 PM 8/29/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>   MLT -
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>   How nice of you to send the book - need
>> > 1,000 more.
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>   does a little too right mean we are
>> > loosing you? - hope not.
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>>   stan/gbi
>> > > >>>>>>>>
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > > >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>> > www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > > >>>>>>>
>> > > >>>>>>>
>> > __________________________________________________
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>> > > >>>>>>
>> > __________________________________________________
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>> > > >>>>>
>> > > >>>>>
>> > > >>>>>
>> > __________________________________________________
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>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
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