[Rhodes22-list] Outboards

Thu Sep 23 11:54:23 EDT 2004

Roger,

I haven't used a gallon of gas all summer.  (Which is my real point.)  

I don't motor on lakes.

Your statement "My old Evinrude 6 hp 2-cycle outbaord got about 6 nm/gal at 5 knots.  My
present Honda 8 hp 4-cycle outboard gets about 10 nm/gal at 5 knots." is meaningless, and I know you it.

Can you look inside your 5 gallon tank, pull out your slide rule and know precisely how much gas you have used?  I can't.  If you can, please tell me how to do that.

More likely, you have run through a tank of gas, then computed your distance on charts.

I can't do that.  Not only do I not average a tank of gas all summer, I live with currents.  If I take my boat to the East River, turn on my Tohatsu at idle, and go with the flow, I can travel 6 nm using maybe 1/2 pint of gas.  If I then put your engine on my boat, turn around, and go against the flow at full throttle, I will empty your gas tank and not move an inch forward.

And I think we can both agree that the results of such a test would be meaningless.

Most of us do not run through a tank-full of gas every time we go sailing.  We turn on our motors for relatively short periods of time, we maneuver through moorings, or slips, or other things that are the reason we don't have our sails up in the first place.  We do not run at full throttle under these conditions.

I have never seen a test of how much gas is used by a hard-starting 4-stroke to go 300 yards, but I'll bet you anything its not twice as good as my easy-start 2-stroke.

As I remember, your Evinrude had a cavitation problem because it had a shorter shaft, which you solved with a longer shaft on your Honda.  I believe you once said this would contribute to better mileage.

You have also noted in the past that 4-stroke engine manufacturers routinely set their idle mixture too low in order to meet emissions standards, and this results in stalling.  I quote you:

"Some carburetors have an idle air/fuel ratio mixture adjusting screw.  On my
Honda 9.9, the proceedure is to gently screw the idle air/fuel pilot all the
way in (clockwise) & then back it out (counterclockwise) 2-3/4 turns.  This
is the basic adjustment & you may have to reset the idle speed again after
doing this.  An experienced mechanic usually fine tunes the idle air/fuel
ratio by listening to the engine idling.  If the engine is still stalling at
the basic 2-1/4 turns counterclockwise setting, then the problem is usually
an air/fuel ratio that is too lean.  The engine manufacturers are trying
real hard to meet the emission regulations & this tends to drive them
towards setting up their carbs on the lean side.  To richen up the idle
air/fuel ratio, turn the pilot screw out counterclockwise 1/4 turn & listen
to how the engine runs.  Keep turning the pilot screw out 1/4 turn
counterclockwise until the engine runs smoothly & doesn't stall.  I realize
that proceedure sounds a little artsy-crafty, but that's how mechanics fine
tune the idle air/fuel ratio.

"In order to meet emission regulations, some manufacturers seal the idle
air/fuel ratio mixture screw with lead or epoxy so you can't adjust it.  If
this is the case with your Yamaha, then you will have to take it back to the
dealer."

Oh, wait, Roger--Here's the smoking gun!  

I quote from your post on November 14, 2001:.

"David,

"The Japanese engines seem to be a cold-blooded lot.  My Hondas demand
several minutes of warm-up running on at least partial choke & fast idle
before they are willing to idle in gear at 1100 rpm without any choke."

Roger--I turn on my motor; drop my mooring; motor away from other boats; raise my sails; and turn off my motor.  However much gas and oil I use, that's it.  You are still sitting in your slip, warming up your engine when my engine is off, not using any gas at all.

I do not seek a spat with you.  I will not be challenged to a duel.  My next motor will be either be a 4-stroke, or a little generator like the one brad is using and an electric motor.  Clearly, judging from Ron's recent experience, they have not yet worked out all the bugs on 4-stroke marine engines.  I'm going to wait until they do.  The way most of us use our motors, an old 2 stroke is no more environmentally unsound than a new 4 stroke.

I really must run.

Bill  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Roger Pihlaja 
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list 
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards

Bill,

My old Evinrude 6 hp 2-cycle outbaord got about 6 nm/gal at 5 knots.  My
present Honda 8 hp 4-cycle outboard gets about 10 nm/gal at 5 knots.  Same
boat, same lake, same conditions, just about 2X better mileage.  There's
real world data, Bill.  What sort of mileage do you get?

The facts I cited in my FAQ were published in peer reviewed scientific
journals & government agency reports by qualified researchers.  I expect you
to adhere to the same standard of evidence.  The list will be waiting with
baited breath for you to back up your claims with good science.  If it turns
out that you can; then, I'll be the 1st to apologise.  Until then, you have
nothing but a bunch of unsubstantiated claims & some charming anecdotal
stories.

The trouble with the internet is that anyone can set themselves up as an
"expert" and claim anything with no substance behind it.  In this case, you
are spreading false information regarding 4-cycle reliability & the 2-cycle
vs. 4-cycle emissions issues.  On this issue, you just simply WRONG!

You can wait until after the election or until the cows come home.  I'm
betting you won't be able to back up your claims sir.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards

> Roger,
>
> I don't have time for this right now, but I will get back to it after the
election.  If I forget, I'm counting on you to bring it up again the next
time I mention 2 cycle engines.
>
> Like many things in this world, this issue is not what it seems.
Legislation was passed that benefits large corporations at the expense of
everyone else without providing substantial benefits to the environment that
couldn't be achieved at far lower cost.
>
> And yes, I can back that up with "good science".
>
> I'm with Ed on this one.  Many of the "facts" you have cited in the past
come from research institutes funded by engine manufacturers.  The tested
engines cannot be duplicated in the real world.  Your engine does not go
twice as far on a gallon of gas than mine.
>
> I'll spend more time on this when I have it.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Pihlaja
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
>
>
> Bill,
>
> One defective engine from Nissan  has nothing to do with average emissions
> from 4-cycle vs. 2-cycle engines.
>
> Bill, for every one of your amusing anecdotes about people having troubles
> with their 4-cycle outboards, I can cite you four other stories about
> 4-cycle owners that are happy with 2X better fuel economy, less noise, no
> smoke, not having to mix oil with the gas, etc.  You know, I've talked
with
> mechanics at local marinas, did a search on the internet, looked in
Consumer
> Reports, looked in the Consumer Product Recall archieves.  I can't find
any
> hard evidence about the problems you keep harping about regarding 4-cycle
> reliability.  In my FAQ which I sent to you, I cited the emission &
> toxicology studies that led up to the current emssion regulations.  You
> rejected it all as "glurge".  If the 4-cycle outboards were really having
> the sorts of problems you claim on a widespread basis; then, shouldn't
there
> be
> some hard data somewhere?  Well, now its your turn sir, I challenge you
> to cite us some hard data on this issue - a service bulletin from one of
the
> outboard manufacturers, a consumer product safety commision report, a
> reputable survey - something other than your own experience.
>
> By the way, even if your claims about having to mix additives with 4-cycle
> fuel were true, which I dispute, the 4-cycle engine emission data shows it
> emits about 1/10 the unburned hydrocarbons of a 2-cycle engine.  So, even
if
> these additives were required in 4-cycle fuel, the 4-cycle engine would
> still do a much better job of incinerating them than 2-cycle engines do.
>
> Bill, it's time to put up or shut up.  I say you don't know what you are
> talking about.  Show us the data to prove that you do.  Until you can
> show us this data, I'm going to bring this issue up every time you say
> anything about 2-cycle vs. 4-cycle engines.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V dynamic Equilibrium
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
>
>
> > That's "abated breath" I hit the send key when aiming for the save key.
> >
> > Keep us posted on the Nissan.  I don't know if anyone else has a Nissan
> 4-stroke.  I was considering them, also.  Is it quiet?
> >
> > Roger, not to go round on this again, but my consistent point has been
> that Ron with his supposedly environmentally sound engine has just dumped
> more oil into the environment in 2 hours than I have dumped into the
> environment with my 2 stroke in 2 years.  The dealer reports this was not
an
> isolated case.  Many people on the list with 4-strokes are dumping oil
into
> their gas tanks to ensure proper lubrication of their engines.
> >
> > As everyone knows, I can go off on a right-wing screed on this issue,
but
> I am trying to restrain myself.
> >
> > I know everyone is trying to do the right thing.  Sometimes that impulse
> leads to bad policy, bad laws, and bad decisions.  What does Ron do now?
> They're not going to give him a new engine.  And maybe a new one would be
> just as bad as the one he's got.
> >
> > What do I do now?  I was thinking of getting a 4-stroke, too, but I
wanted
> to see what happened with Ron.
> >
> > I WAS waiting with 'bated breath.
> >
> > Bill Effros
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bill Effros
> > To: Ronald Lipton ; The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> >
> >
> > I believe it's a contraction for "abated breth" 'bated breath.
> >
> > Bill Effros
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ronald Lipton
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> >
> >
> >
> > For those of you waiting with baited beath (does this means worms
> > hanging out of your mouth?).  I ended up buying the Nissan 6 four
> > cycle.   I could not find a reasonably priced used 2 cycle long shaft.
> > The Monroe Harbormaster was very accomodating ferrying me out
> > to the boat and helping me remove the old engine and install the new
> > one.
> >
> > The story does not yet have a happy ending ... the new Nissan
> > is burning oil, having emptied it's resovoir after about 2 hours of
> > running and with a thick cloud of smoke on startup.  I was told by
> > the dealer that some of the engines "do that" until they are broken
> > in - but I am sceptical.  Hopefully I can keep it running well
> > enough to allow me to finish the season before it is serviced, but
> > I still have the outboard blues.
> >
> > for Stan:
> >
> > Go IU, beat Purdue. ( It might happen someday)
> >
> > Ron
> > __________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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