[Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails

[Steve]

Excellent, write up, Roger.  
One thing though; you would also take a hit on
handicapp with any foresail greater than 155%. 
Steve


--- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:

> Ed,
> 
> The GBI factory claim regarding boats equipped with
> the diamond board is
> that they point somewhat better than the boats with
> the older high aspect
> ratio centerboard.  This claim may very well be true
> because the diamond
> board has more surface area than the old
> centerboards.  If there were a
> Rhodes 22 single design racing class; then, the
> diamond board boats would be
> handicapped according to some % of the ratio of the
> surface areas of the two
> different centerboards.  It would be interesting to
> have a match race
> between an old centerboard & new centerboard boat. 
> Although, it would be
> difficult to find two Rhodes 22 that were
> sufficiently similar in all the
> other important factors like weight, IMF mainsail
> vs. standard mainsail,
> 150% vs. 175% genoa, etc.
> 
> Perhaps I've misunderstood; but, it sounds like you
> are using your forward
> jib car tracks with your 175% genoa.  With your 175%
> genoa, any jib car
> position on the forward track with result in a genoa
> sail shape with
> insufficient twist for optimum performance.  The
> correct jib car position
> for a 175% genoa will be on the aft track in the
> vicinity of the winch pads.
> The below enclosed FAQ discusses how to achieve the
> best jib car position:
> 
> JIB CAR TUNING PROCEDURE:
> 
> The basic method for determining the position for
> the jib cars is to sight
> up the jib sheet & continue the imaginary line past
> the clew all the way to
> the forestay. At the proper jib car position, this
> imaginary line should
> intersect the midpoint on the luff of the sail. As
> the sail is reefed, the
> jib car position will move forward. Shift to the
> forward track when the rear
> track won't give you the proper geometry, usually
> with a foresail smaller
> than about 100%.
> 
> The above procedure will give you an approximate jib
> car position, which can
> then be fine tuned thru the use of tell tales. The
> following procedure can
> be used for fine tuning the jib on points of sail
> from close hauled to a
> beam reach. On any point of sail more downwind than
> a beam reach, you should
> just use the above basic procedure since the mode of
> operation of the sail
> changes from behaving like a wing to behaving more
> like a parachute.
> 
> You should have 3 tell tales about 12" back from the
> luff & equally spaced
> down the luff of the sail. Usually, tell tales are
> installed with a small
> window so the sail trimmer can see the tell tale on
> both sides of the sail
> without having to duck their head under the sail.
> The sail is properly
> trimmed when the windward & leeward tell tales at
> all 3 positions are
> streaming backwards. The proper jib car position is
> determined by either the
> jib trimmer pulling in slightly on the jib sheet or
> the helmsman pinching up
> slightly into the wind while watching the behavior
> of the tell tales. (This
> test is done slowly) If the top tell tales flutter
> before the bottom; then,
> the sail shape is twisted too much. You should move
> the jib car position
> forward a few inches. This will alter the geometry
> of the jib sheet to cause
> the line to pull down more on the clew of the sail,
> increase leech tension,
> & reduce twist. If the bottom tell tales flutter
> 1st; then, the sail needs
> more twist & the jib car position should be moved
> aft a couple of inches.
> Note that this effect is subtle & moving the jib car
> position a few inches
> one way or the other is all that is required.
> 
> Peter, you should also remember to start your sail
> trimming with the
> headsail, get it close & then trim the mainsail. The
> two sails will interact
> & affect each other's trim settings. So, you have to
> keep trimming 1st one &
> then the other making fine adjustments. Most
> cruising sailers call the sail
> trim good enough after about one repetition of this
> procedure unless sailing
> conditions suddenly change drastically.
> 
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 07 Jul 2001
> 
> 
> 
> Also with your 175% genoa, you may find that you
> make better progress to
> windward if you sheet the headsail such that it is
> slightly off the spreader
> tip.  The 175% genoa is a very large headsail & it
> tends to backwind the
> mainsail if sheeted in too tightly.  This is
> especially a problem in the
> light air that the 175% genoa is normally used in. 
> You can detect
> backwinding of your mainsail by watching the
> behavior of the leech telltales
> on your mainsail.  They should normally be streaming
> aft when everything
> else is trimmed properly.  If the mainsail leech
> telltales are fluttering or
> drooping when everything else is apparently trimmed
> properly; then, try
> letting off the genoa sheet until the mainsail leech
> telltales just stop
> drooping.  Optimise your jib car position for that
> genoa sheet setting & now
> you're beating to weather efficiently!
> 
> I absolutely love my high tech bi-radial composite
> sailcloth genoa & fully
> battened roachy mainsail.  The acceleration in
> response to a puff of wind
> just sets you back into the seat & is completely
> additive!  Besides, when
> the sun is behind it & you can see the biradial
> panel design & construction
> in silouette, it just looks totally cool!
> 
> 100 - 110 degree tacking angles are nothing to brag
> about.  On the other
> hand, a 70 degree tacking angle is approaching the
> performance of an
> America's Cup boat & is, therefore, a little hard to
> believe for a
> trailerable cruising boat with dacron sails. 
> Tacking angles in the 80 - 90
> degree range are what's reasonable for our Rhodes
> 22's with OEM sails.
> 
> Roger Pihlaja
> 
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net>
> To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:21 AM
> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> 
> 
> >
> > Fred:
> >
> > Are you going to replace the sacrificial canvass
> yourself or have a
> > loft or Sailcare fix it?  Or are you going buy a
> new sail?
> > That being said, my question that you never
> answered was do you have
> > a centerboard or diamond board.  But I think that
> you have answered the
> > question by telling us the condition of your
> Genny.  If you had a diamond
> > board, your sails should be newer and therefore
> not deteriorated.  So may
> I
> > conclude that you have a centerboard?
> > Does your boat have inside sheeting tracks,
> fairleads or cleats on
> > the outside cabin wall?  Since I have the inside
> tracks, I can adjust the
> > cars which have blocks to maintain leech tension
> on the 175.  I have
> > concluded that with the tracks, I can maintain
> better sail shape by
> > adjusting the cars to keep the leech tight and
> well angled when sheeting
> > inside.
> > Even with the sails outside, maybe the condition
> of the sails is a
> > big factor in your pointing.  The tighter I get my
> Genny, the better I
> > point, even at 175.  I have not figured out how to
> get the foot as tight
> as
> > the leech.  If I use a balance approach, the leech
> is not tight enough.  I
> > can see why those who race get the 'new' high tech
> sails.
> >
> > Ed K
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf Of
> > SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:02 PM
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing dog
> question
> >
> > Ed,
> >
> > I thought I answered your question and I don't
> recall asking one.  Since
> we
> > so misunderstand each other, we ought to have a
> political discussion.
> >
> > Anyway, today was God's late summer gift to
> boaters on Lake Erie--perfect
> > temperature and no bugs, perfect wind and no
> waves.  Yet even while I was
> so
> >
> > enraptured by His presence, I though of you, Ed.
> Rather, I was thinking of
> > your
> > question, or answer, or whatever.
> >
> > Coming back to my home light, I was beating at
> about 4.5 knots.  The boat
> > was
> > pinching as hard as I could get her by tightening
> the back stays as much
> as
> > I
> > could and pulling the 175% genny to the end of the
> track.  The Autohelm
> was
> > locked to keep the tiller at midship, allowing the
> R22 to seek the highest
> > point into the wind.  The GPS showed her track
> varied 3-5 deg, which would
> > represent the variation in wind direction.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I didn't have the weight on board
> to keep the boat sailing
> on
> >
> > her lines because I was single handing and getting
> too old to sit on the
> > rail
> > comfortably.  So heel was between 10 and 20 deg. 
> Another problem is that
> > the
> > leech edge of the canvas sun protection strip for
> my genny has rotted
> > allowing
> > the tension line to fly free.  (Got to wait for
> winter to fix that since I
> > have the GBI furler.)
> >
> > In clear air, I tacked three times through 100 to
> 110 degrees.  That means
> I
> >
> > was sailing between 50 and 55 degrees off the
> wind.  With more ballast and
> a
> >
> > not-ratty head sail, I probably would have been
> closer to the theoretical
> 45
> >
> > deg.
> >
> > Does that answer your question?  (Oops, maybe
> we're back in the
> > question-question loop again.)
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > In a message dated 9/22/04 8:22:04 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> > ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> >
> > > Fred:
> > >   Thank you for still not answering my question
> while asking another.
> > >
> > >   Would it have been a question to which you do
> not know the answer?
> > >
> > >   Nevertheless, I will answer your question and
> that is I do not know
> > > the real answer to that question.  I just look
> at who has trouble
> pointing
> > > to the wind.  By asking the question, from those
> willing to respond, I
> get
> > > more information on which to make an opinion.  I
> also learn ways to
> better
> > > point to the wind.
> > >   I am not an experienced sailor.  I am a
> Saturday afternoon sailor
> > > who uses the wind to take him anywhere and
> nowhere in particular.
> > >   That being said, if the wind is fresh, I
> believe that if scientific
> > > instruments were used, when I set up for the
> wind, I can point less the
> 45
> > > degrees mentioned on this list recently.  In
> fact, when I try, I think
> > that
> > > I can get closer to 35 degrees.
> > >   However, that is just a wild-eyed guess based
> on my Windex.  Last
> > > Saturday with the wind gusting to knock down
> power, I could not get
> that,
> > > but at that point the Genny was outside at about
> 100% and I was on final
> > > approach to the Marina.
> > >   And, if you read the post on this list you
> will learn how to push
> > > the envelope.
> > >   Now tell us, does your dog point?
> > >
> > > Ed K
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf Of
> > > SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM
> > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing
> > >
> > > Ed,
> > >
> > > I thought the diamond board was better because
> of the more forward
> weight
> > > distribution.
> > >
> > > Fred
> > >
> > > In a message dated 9/21/04 5:53:51 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> > > ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Fred's Hunter IMF
> > > >
> > > >Fred:
> > > >
> > > >Is it a secret?  Because I think that R22's
> with a centerboard like
> mine
> > > >point better than those with a diamond board. 
> But so far this just a
> > > guess
> > > >or opinion.  Now answer the question, pretty
> please.
> > > >
> > > >Ed K
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> 



	
		
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