[Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails

[SVGravityLeak at aol.com]

Just for the record, with my IMF main (no batten), genny in good repair and 
completely unfurled, sufficient weight aboard and the diamond board down, I can 
tack through as little as 95 deg.

Fred

In a message dated 9/24/04 12:56:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cen09402 at centurytel.net writes:

> 
> Steve,
> 
> That's what I was talking about when I said it would be difficult to find
> two Rhodes 22's that were sufficiently alike except for their centerboards
> to have a valid match race.
> 
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> 
> 
> >Excellent, write up, Roger.
> >One thing though; you would also take a hit on
> >handicapp with any foresail greater than 155%.
> >Steve
> >
> >
> >--- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Ed,
> >>
> >>The GBI factory claim regarding boats equipped with
> >>the diamond board is
> >>that they point somewhat better than the boats with
> >>the older high aspect
> >>ratio centerboard.  This claim may very well be true
> >>because the diamond
> >>board has more surface area than the old
> >>centerboards.  If there were a
> >>Rhodes 22 single design racing class; then, the
> >>diamond board boats would be
> >>handicapped according to some % of the ratio of the
> >>surface areas of the two
> >>different centerboards.  It would be interesting to
> >>have a match race
> >>between an old centerboard &new centerboard boat.
> >>Although, it would be
> >>difficult to find two Rhodes 22 that were
> >>sufficiently similar in all the
> >>other important factors like weight, IMF mainsail
> >>vs. standard mainsail,
> >>150% vs. 175% genoa, etc.
> >>
> >>Perhaps I've misunderstood; but, it sounds like you
> >>are using your forward
> >>jib car tracks with your 175% genoa.  With your 175%
> >>genoa, any jib car
> >>position on the forward track with result in a genoa
> >>sail shape with
> >>insufficient twist for optimum performance.  The
> >>correct jib car position
> >>for a 175% genoa will be on the aft track in the
> >>vicinity of the winch pads.
> >>The below enclosed FAQ discusses how to achieve the
> >>best jib car position:
> >>
> >>JIB CAR TUNING PROCEDURE:
> >>
> >>The basic method for determining the position for
> >>the jib cars is to sight
> >>up the jib sheet &continue the imaginary line past
> >>the clew all the way to
> >>the forestay. At the proper jib car position, this
> >>imaginary line should
> >>intersect the midpoint on the luff of the sail. As
> >>the sail is reefed, the
> >>jib car position will move forward. Shift to the
> >>forward track when the rear
> >>track won't give you the proper geometry, usually
> >>with a foresail smaller
> >>than about 100%.
> >>
> >>The above procedure will give you an approximate jib
> >>car position, which can
> >>then be fine tuned thru the use of tell tales. The
> >>following procedure can
> >>be used for fine tuning the jib on points of sail
> >>from close hauled to a
> >>beam reach. On any point of sail more downwind than
> >>a beam reach, you should
> >>just use the above basic procedure since the mode of
> >>operation of the sail
> >>changes from behaving like a wing to behaving more
> >>like a parachute.
> >>
> >>You should have 3 tell tales about 12" back from the
> >>luff &equally spaced
> >>down the luff of the sail. Usually, tell tales are
> >>installed with a small
> >>window so the sail trimmer can see the tell tale on
> >>both sides of the sail
> >>without having to duck their head under the sail.
> >>The sail is properly
> >>trimmed when the windward &leeward tell tales at
> >>all 3 positions are
> >>streaming backwards. The proper jib car position is
> >>determined by either the
> >>jib trimmer pulling in slightly on the jib sheet or
> >>the helmsman pinching up
> >>slightly into the wind while watching the behavior
> >>of the tell tales. (This
> >>test is done slowly) If the top tell tales flutter
> >>before the bottom; then,
> >>the sail shape is twisted too much. You should move
> >>the jib car position
> >>forward a few inches. This will alter the geometry
> >>of the jib sheet to cause
> >>the line to pull down more on the clew of the sail,
> >>increase leech tension,
> >>&reduce twist. If the bottom tell tales flutter
> >>1st; then, the sail needs
> >>more twist &the jib car position should be moved
> >>aft a couple of inches.
> >>Note that this effect is subtle &moving the jib car
> >>position a few inches
> >>one way or the other is all that is required.
> >>
> >>Peter, you should also remember to start your sail
> >>trimming with the
> >>headsail, get it close &then trim the mainsail. The
> >>two sails will interact
> >>&affect each other's trim settings. So, you have to
> >>keep trimming 1st one &
> >>then the other making fine adjustments. Most
> >>cruising sailers call the sail
> >>trim good enough after about one repetition of this
> >>procedure unless sailing
> >>conditions suddenly change drastically.
> >>
> >>Roger Pihlaja
> >>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>07 Jul 2001
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Also with your 175% genoa, you may find that you
> >>make better progress to
> >>windward if you sheet the headsail such that it is
> >>slightly off the spreader
> >>tip.  The 175% genoa is a very large headsail &it
> >>tends to backwind the
> >>mainsail if sheeted in too tightly.  This is
> >>especially a problem in the
> >>light air that the 175% genoa is normally used in.
> >>You can detect
> >>backwinding of your mainsail by watching the
> >>behavior of the leech telltales
> >>on your mainsail.  They should normally be streaming
> >>aft when everything
> >>else is trimmed properly.  If the mainsail leech
> >>telltales are fluttering or
> >>drooping when everything else is apparently trimmed
> >>properly; then, try
> >>letting off the genoa sheet until the mainsail leech
> >>telltales just stop
> >>drooping.  Optimise your jib car position for that
> >>genoa sheet setting &now
> >>you're beating to weather efficiently!
> >>
> >>I absolutely love my high tech bi-radial composite
> >>sailcloth genoa &fully
> >>battened roachy mainsail.  The acceleration in
> >>response to a puff of wind
> >>just sets you back into the seat &is completely
> >>additive!  Besides, when
> >>the sun is behind it &you can see the biradial
> >>panel design &construction
> >>in silouette, it just looks totally cool!
> >>
> >>100 - 110 degree tacking angles are nothing to brag
> >>about.  On the other
> >>hand, a 70 degree tacking angle is approaching the
> >>performance of an
> >>America's Cup boat &is, therefore, a little hard to
> >>believe for a
> >>trailerable cruising boat with dacron sails.
> >>Tacking angles in the 80 - 90
> >>degree range are what's reasonable for our Rhodes
> >>22's with OEM sails.
> >>
> >>Roger Pihlaja
> >>
> >>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net>
> >>To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> >><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:21 AM
> >>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Fred:
> >>>
> >>>Are you going to replace the sacrificial canvass
> >>yourself or have a
> >>>loft or Sailcare fix it?  Or are you going buy a
> >>new sail?
> >>>That being said, my question that you never
> >>answered was do you have
> >>>a centerboard or diamond board.  But I think that
> >>you have answered the
> >>>question by telling us the condition of your
> >>Genny.  If you had a diamond
> >>>board, your sails should be newer and therefore
> >>not deteriorated.  So may
> >>I
> >>>conclude that you have a centerboard?
> >>>Does your boat have inside sheeting tracks,
> >>fairleads or cleats on
> >>>the outside cabin wall?  Since I have the inside
> >>tracks, I can adjust the
> >>>cars which have blocks to maintain leech tension
> >>on the 175.  I have
> >>>concluded that with the tracks, I can maintain
> >>better sail shape by
> >>>adjusting the cars to keep the leech tight and
> >>well angled when sheeting
> >>>inside.
> >>>Even with the sails outside, maybe the condition
> >>of the sails is a
> >>>big factor in your pointing.  The tighter I get my
> >>Genny, the better I
> >>>point, even at 175.  I have not figured out how to
> >>get the foot as tight
> >>as
> >>>the leech.  If I use a balance approach, the leech
> >>is not tight enough.  I
> >>>can see why those who race get the 'new' high tech
> >>sails.
> >>>
> >>>Ed K
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> >>Behalf Of
> >>>SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> >>>Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:02 PM
> >>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing dog
> >>question
> >>>
> >>>Ed,
> >>>
> >>>I thought I answered your question and I don't
> >>recall asking one.  Since
> >>we
> >>>so misunderstand each other, we ought to have a
> >>political discussion.
> >>>
> >>>Anyway, today was God's late summer gift to
> >>boaters on Lake Erie--perfect
> >>>temperature and no bugs, perfect wind and no
> >>waves.  Yet even while I was
> >>so
> >>>
> >>>enraptured by His presence, I though of you, Ed.
> >>Rather, I was thinking of
> >>>your
> >>>question, or answer, or whatever.
> >>>
> >>>Coming back to my home light, I was beating at
> >>about 4.5 knots.  The boat
> >>>was
> >>>pinching as hard as I could get her by tightening
> >>the back stays as much
> >>as
> >>>I
> >>>could and pulling the 175% genny to the end of the
> >>track.  The Autohelm
> >>was
> >>>locked to keep the tiller at midship, allowing the
> >>R22 to seek the highest
> >>>point into the wind.  The GPS showed her track
> >>varied 3-5 deg, which would
> >>>represent the variation in wind direction.
> >>>
> >>>Unfortunately, I didn't have the weight on board
> >>to keep the boat sailing
> >>on
> >>>
> >>>her lines because I was single handing and getting
> >>too old to sit on the
> >>>rail
> >>>comfortably.  So heel was between 10 and 20 deg.
> >>Another problem is that
> >>>the
> >>>leech edge of the canvas sun protection strip for
> >>my genny has rotted
> >>>allowing
> >>>the tension line to fly free.  (Got to wait for
> >>winter to fix that since I
> >>>have the GBI furler.)
> >>>
> >>>In clear air, I tacked three times through 100 to
> >>110 degrees.  That means
> >>I
> >>>
> >>>was sailing between 50 and 55 degrees off the
> >>wind.  With more ballast and
> >>a
> >>>
> >>>not-ratty head sail, I probably would have been
> >>closer to the theoretical
> >>45
> >>>
> >>>deg.
> >>>
> >>>Does that answer your question?  (Oops, maybe
> >>we're back in the
> >>>question-question loop again.)
> >>>
> >>>Fred
> >>>
> >>>In a message dated 9/22/04 8:22:04 PM Eastern
> >>Daylight Time,
> >>>ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> >>>
> >>>>Fred:
> >>>>  Thank you for still not answering my question
> >>while asking another.
> >>>>
> >>>>  Would it have been a question to which you do
> >>not know the answer?
> >>>>
> >>>>  Nevertheless, I will answer your question and
> >>that is I do not know
> >>>>the real answer to that question.  I just look
> >>at who has trouble
> >>pointing
> >>>>to the wind.  By asking the question, from those
> >>willing to respond, I
> >>get
> >>>>more information on which to make an opinion.  I
> >>also learn ways to
> >>better
> >>>>point to the wind.
> >>>>  I am not an experienced sailor.  I am a
> >>Saturday afternoon sailor
> >>>>who uses the wind to take him anywhere and
> >>nowhere in particular.
> >>>>  That being said, if the wind is fresh, I
> >>believe that if scientific
> >>>>instruments were used, when I set up for the
> >>wind, I can point less the
> >>45
> >>>>degrees mentioned on this list recently.  In
> >>fact, when I try, I think
> >>>that
> >>>>I can get closer to 35 degrees.
> >>>>  However, that is just a wild-eyed guess based
> >>on my Windex.  Last
> >>>>Saturday with the wind gusting to knock down
> >>power, I could not get
> >>that,
> >>>>but at that point the Genny was outside at about
> >>100% and I was on final
> >>>>approach to the Marina.
> >>>>  And, if you read the post on this list you
> >>will learn how to push
> >>>>the envelope.
> >>>>  Now tell us, does your dog point?
> >>>>
> >>>>Ed K
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >>>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> >>Behalf Of
> >>>>SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> >>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM
> >>>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing
> >>>>
> >>>>Ed,
> >>>>
> >>>>I thought the diamond board was better because
> >>of the more forward
> >>weight
> >>>>distribution.
> >>>>
> >>>>Fred
> >>>>
> >>>>In a message dated 9/21/04 5:53:51 PM Eastern
> >>Daylight Time,
> >>>>ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Fred's Hunter IMF
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Fred:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Is it a secret?  Because I think that R22's
> >>with a centerboard like
> >>mine
> >>>>>point better than those with a diamond board.
> >>But so far this just a
> >>>>guess
> >>>>>or opinion.  Now answer the question, pretty
> >>please.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Ed K
> >>>>>
>