[Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails

Fri Sep 24 16:39:33 EDT 2004

Steve,

You know, the fair-minded sportsman side of me, says I'd need to spot the
newest boats with the diamond centerboard, IMF mainsail, 175% genoa, real
marine head with holding tank, electric motor lift, & all the fancy, heavy
cabinetry about 50-60 sec/nm in order to make it a fair race.  But, it sure
would be fun to match race boat for boat!  With the handicap, you'd have no
choice but to pull a horizon job on the competition in order to rack up the
time required to beat the handicap.  But, with 500-700 lbs less weight, a
real mainsail with more area & battens, & only a 150% genoa to mess with;
think of how you could mess with their heads in a match race!  A tacking
duel would be especially fun.  You could sail right over the top of anyone,
park them in your slipstream, & watch them choke on your dirty air!  Or, you
could deliberately slow down by dragging things in the water, like your
outboard &/or swim ladder, just enough extra drag to stay slightly out of
reach.  I have a friend with a MacGregor 25 & I frequently do that to him.
It drives him nuts!

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails

> You got that right; Roger.  Beside you know as well as
> I do that the winner is the one with the most tricks
> up his sleave.
>
> When racing, you don't have time to readjust your
> sheet & adjusting the lead forward while on the same
> tack is almost imposible.  But you can run a secondary
> in a minute notice when the wind call for it.
> Steve
>
> PS - I bet our old boats can take these new
> diamondboard:-)
>
> --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > That's what I was talking about when I said it would
> > be difficult to find
> > two Rhodes 22's that were sufficiently alike except
> > for their centerboards
> > to have a valid match race.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> >
> >
> > > Excellent, write up, Roger.
> > > One thing though; you would also take a hit on
> > > handicapp with any foresail greater than 155%.
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ed,
> > > >
> > > > The GBI factory claim regarding boats equipped
> > with
> > > > the diamond board is
> > > > that they point somewhat better than the boats
> > with
> > > > the older high aspect
> > > > ratio centerboard.  This claim may very well be
> > true
> > > > because the diamond
> > > > board has more surface area than the old
> > > > centerboards.  If there were a
> > > > Rhodes 22 single design racing class; then, the
> > > > diamond board boats would be
> > > > handicapped according to some % of the ratio of
> > the
> > > > surface areas of the two
> > > > different centerboards.  It would be interesting
> > to
> > > > have a match race
> > > > between an old centerboard & new centerboard
> > boat.
> > > > Although, it would be
> > > > difficult to find two Rhodes 22 that were
> > > > sufficiently similar in all the
> > > > other important factors like weight, IMF
> > mainsail
> > > > vs. standard mainsail,
> > > > 150% vs. 175% genoa, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps I've misunderstood; but, it sounds like
> > you
> > > > are using your forward
> > > > jib car tracks with your 175% genoa.  With your
> > 175%
> > > > genoa, any jib car
> > > > position on the forward track with result in a
> > genoa
> > > > sail shape with
> > > > insufficient twist for optimum performance.  The
> > > > correct jib car position
> > > > for a 175% genoa will be on the aft track in the
> > > > vicinity of the winch pads.
> > > > The below enclosed FAQ discusses how to achieve
> > the
> > > > best jib car position:
> > > >
> > > > JIB CAR TUNING PROCEDURE:
> > > >
> > > > The basic method for determining the position
> > for
> > > > the jib cars is to sight
> > > > up the jib sheet & continue the imaginary line
> > past
> > > > the clew all the way to
> > > > the forestay. At the proper jib car position,
> > this
> > > > imaginary line should
> > > > intersect the midpoint on the luff of the sail.
> > As
> > > > the sail is reefed, the
> > > > jib car position will move forward. Shift to the
> > > > forward track when the rear
> > > > track won't give you the proper geometry,
> > usually
> > > > with a foresail smaller
> > > > than about 100%.
> > > >
> > > > The above procedure will give you an approximate
> > jib
> > > > car position, which can
> > > > then be fine tuned thru the use of tell tales.
> > The
> > > > following procedure can
> > > > be used for fine tuning the jib on points of
> > sail
> > > > from close hauled to a
> > > > beam reach. On any point of sail more downwind
> > than
> > > > a beam reach, you should
> > > > just use the above basic procedure since the
> > mode of
> > > > operation of the sail
> > > > changes from behaving like a wing to behaving
> > more
> > > > like a parachute.
> > > >
> > > > You should have 3 tell tales about 12" back from
> > the
> > > > luff & equally spaced
> > > > down the luff of the sail. Usually, tell tales
> > are
> > > > installed with a small
> > > > window so the sail trimmer can see the tell tale
> > on
> > > > both sides of the sail
> > > > without having to duck their head under the
> > sail.
> > > > The sail is properly
> > > > trimmed when the windward & leeward tell tales
> > at
> > > > all 3 positions are
> > > > streaming backwards. The proper jib car position
> > is
> > > > determined by either the
> > > > jib trimmer pulling in slightly on the jib sheet
> > or
> > > > the helmsman pinching up
> > > > slightly into the wind while watching the
> > behavior
> > > > of the tell tales. (This
> > > > test is done slowly) If the top tell tales
> > flutter
> > > > before the bottom; then,
> > > > the sail shape is twisted too much. You should
> > move
> > > > the jib car position
> > > > forward a few inches. This will alter the
> > geometry
> > > > of the jib sheet to cause
> > > > the line to pull down more on the clew of the
> > sail,
> > > > increase leech tension,
> > > > & reduce twist. If the bottom tell tales flutter
> > > > 1st; then, the sail needs
> > > > more twist & the jib car position should be
> > moved
> > > > aft a couple of inches.
> > > > Note that this effect is subtle & moving the jib
> > car
> > > > position a few inches
> > > > one way or the other is all that is required.
> > > >
> > > > Peter, you should also remember to start your
> > sail
> > > > trimming with the
> > > > headsail, get it close & then trim the mainsail.
> > The
> > > > two sails will interact
> > > > & affect each other's trim settings. So, you
> > have to
> > > > keep trimming 1st one &
> > > > then the other making fine adjustments. Most
> > > > cruising sailers call the sail
> > > > trim good enough after about one repetition of
> > this
> > > > procedure unless sailing
> > > > conditions suddenly change drastically.
> > > >
> > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > 07 Jul 2001
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Also with your 175% genoa, you may find that you
> > > > make better progress to
> > > > windward if you sheet the headsail such that it
> > is
> > > > slightly off the spreader
> > > > tip.  The 175% genoa is a very large headsail &
> > it
> > > > tends to backwind the
> > > > mainsail if sheeted in too tightly.  This is
> > > > especially a problem in the
> > > > light air that the 175% genoa is normally used
> > in.
> > > > You can detect
> > > > backwinding of your mainsail by watching the
> > > > behavior of the leech telltales
> > > > on your mainsail.  They should normally be
> > streaming
> > > > aft when everything
> > > > else is trimmed properly.  If the mainsail leech
> > > > telltales are fluttering or
> > > > drooping when everything else is apparently
> > trimmed
> > > > properly; then, try
> > > > letting off the genoa sheet until the mainsail
> > leech
> > > > telltales just stop
> > > > drooping.  Optimise your jib car position for
> > that
> > > > genoa sheet setting & now
> > > > you're beating to weather efficiently!
> > > >
> > > > I absolutely love my high tech bi-radial
> > composite
> > > > sailcloth genoa & fully
> > > > battened roachy mainsail.  The acceleration in
> > > > response to a puff of wind
> > > > just sets you back into the seat & is completely
> > > > additive!  Besides, when
> > > > the sun is behind it & you can see the biradial
> > > > panel design & construction
> > > > in silouette, it just looks totally cool!
> > > >
> > > > 100 - 110 degree tacking angles are nothing to
> > brag
> > > > about.  On the other
> > > > hand, a 70 degree tacking angle is approaching
> > the
> > > > performance of an
> > > > America's Cup boat & is, therefore, a little
> > hard to
> > > > believe for a
> > > > trailerable cruising boat with dacron sails.
> > > > Tacking angles in the 80 - 90
> > > > degree range are what's reasonable for our
> > Rhodes
> > > > 22's with OEM sails.
> > > >
> > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > >
> > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net>
> > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:21 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Fred:
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you going to replace the sacrificial
> > canvass
> > > > yourself or have a
> > > > > loft or Sailcare fix it?  Or are you going buy
> > a
> > > > new sail?
> > > > > That being said, my question that you never
> > > > answered was do you have
> > > > > a centerboard or diamond board.  But I think
> > that
> > > > you have answered the
> > > > > question by telling us the condition of your
> > > > Genny.  If you had a diamond
> > > > > board, your sails should be newer and
> > therefore
> > > > not deteriorated.  So may
> > > > I
> > > > > conclude that you have a centerboard?
> > > > > Does your boat have inside sheeting tracks,
> > > > fairleads or cleats on
> > > > > the outside cabin wall?  Since I have the
> > inside
> > > > tracks, I can adjust the
> > > > > cars which have blocks to maintain leech
> > tension
> > > > on the 175.  I have
> > > > > concluded that with the tracks, I can maintain
> > > > better sail shape by
> > > > > adjusting the cars to keep the leech tight and
> > > > well angled when sheeting
> > > > > inside.
> > > > > Even with the sails outside, maybe the
> > condition
> > > > of the sails is a
> > > > > big factor in your pointing.  The tighter I
> > get my
> > > > Genny, the better I
> > > > > point, even at 175.  I have not figured out
> > how to
> > > > get the foot as tight
> > > > as
> > > > > the leech.  If I use a balance approach, the
> > leech
> > > > is not tight enough.  I
> > > > > can see why those who race get the 'new' high
> > tech
> > > > sails.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed K
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of
> > > > > SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:02 PM
> > > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing
> > dog
> > > > question
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed,
> > > > >
> > > > > I thought I answered your question and I don't
> > > > recall asking one.  Since
> > > > we
> > > > > so misunderstand each other, we ought to have
> > a
> > > > political discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, today was God's late summer gift to
> > > > boaters on Lake Erie--perfect
> > > > > temperature and no bugs, perfect wind and no
> > > > waves.  Yet even while I was
> > > > so
> > > > >
> > > > > enraptured by His presence, I though of you,
> > Ed.
> > > > Rather, I was thinking of
> > > > > your
> > > > > question, or answer, or whatever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Coming back to my home light, I was beating at
> > > > about 4.5 knots.  The boat
> > > > > was
> > > > > pinching as hard as I could get her by
> > tightening
> > > > the back stays as much
> > > > as
> > > > > I
> > > > > could and pulling the 175% genny to the end of
> > the
> > > > track.  The Autohelm
> > > > was
> > > > > locked to keep the tiller at midship, allowing
> > the
> > > > R22 to seek the highest
> > > > > point into the wind.  The GPS showed her track
> > > > varied 3-5 deg, which would
> > > > > represent the variation in wind direction.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, I didn't have the weight on
> > board
> > > > to keep the boat sailing
> > > > on
> > > > >
> > > > > her lines because I was single handing and
> > getting
> > > > too old to sit on the
> > > > > rail
> > > > > comfortably.  So heel was between 10 and 20
> > deg.
> > > > Another problem is that
> > > > > the
> > > > > leech edge of the canvas sun protection strip
> > for
> > > > my genny has rotted
> > > > > allowing
> > > > > the tension line to fly free.  (Got to wait
> > for
> > > > winter to fix that since I
> > > > > have the GBI furler.)
> > > > >
> > > > > In clear air, I tacked three times through 100
> > to
> > > > 110 degrees.  That means
> > > > I
> > > > >
> > > > > was sailing between 50 and 55 degrees off the
> > > > wind.  With more ballast and
> > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > not-ratty head sail, I probably would have
> > been
> > > > closer to the theoretical
> > > > 45
> > > > >
> > > > > deg.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does that answer your question?  (Oops, maybe
> > > > we're back in the
> > > > > question-question loop again.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Fred
> > > > >
> > > > > In a message dated 9/22/04 8:22:04 PM Eastern
> > > > Daylight Time,
> > > > > ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Fred:
> > > > > >   Thank you for still not answering my
> > question
> > > > while asking another.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   Would it have been a question to which you
> > do
> > > > not know the answer?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   Nevertheless, I will answer your question
> > and
> > > > that is I do not know
> > > > > > the real answer to that question.  I just
> > look
> > > > at who has trouble
> > > > pointing
> > > > > > to the wind.  By asking the question, from
> > those
> > > > willing to respond, I
> > > > get
> > > > > > more information on which to make an
> > opinion.  I
> > > > also learn ways to
> > > > better
> > > > > > point to the wind.
> > > > > >   I am not an experienced sailor.  I am a
> > > > Saturday afternoon sailor
> > > > > > who uses the wind to take him anywhere and
> > > > nowhere in particular.
> > > > > >   That being said, if the wind is fresh, I
> > > > believe that if scientific
> > > > > > instruments were used, when I set up for the
> > > > wind, I can point less the
> > > > 45
> > > > > > degrees mentioned on this list recently.  In
> > > > fact, when I try, I think
> > > > > that
> > > > > > I can get closer to 35 degrees.
> > > > > >   However, that is just a wild-eyed guess
> > based
> > > > on my Windex.  Last
> > > > > > Saturday with the wind gusting to knock down
> > > > power, I could not get
> > > > that,
> > > > > > but at that point the Genny was outside at
> > about
> > > > 100% and I was on final
> > > > > > approach to the Marina.
> > > > > >   And, if you read the post on this list you
> > > > will learn how to push
> > > > > > the envelope.
> > > > > >   Now tell us, does your dog point?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> > On
> > > > Behalf Of
> > > > > > SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM
> > > > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I thought the diamond board was better
> > because
> > > > of the more forward
> > > > weight
> > > > > > distribution.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fred
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In a message dated 9/21/04 5:53:51 PM
> > Eastern
> > > > Daylight Time,
> > > > > > ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Fred's Hunter
> > IMF
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Fred:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is it a secret?  Because I think that R22's
> > > > with a centerboard like
> > > > mine
> > > > > > >point better than those with a diamond
> > board.
> > > > But so far this just a
> > > > > > guess
> > > > > > >or opinion.  Now answer the question,
> > pretty
> > > > please.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Ed K
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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