[Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?

Wed Aug 24 19:59:43 EDT 2005

Bill,
I wonder if a simplified BR design wouldn't cost much less.  It is simply a frame suspended over the boom with 'drapes' dropped and secured from each of four sides.  I cannot imagine more than $600 cost, even with screen.  The R22 is certainly an excellent platform.
Art

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
Sent: Aug 24, 2005 9:56 AM
To: R22 List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?

Dave,

The truth of the matter is that I'm not sure about the need to improve 
the boom room, either.  My sense is that if 4 or 5 were built now to the 
same specifications that would be the all time Boom Room production record.

Without exception, everyone who has one loves it.  Some have boom 
rooms.  Some have Bimini rooms.  Some have modified tarps slung over the 
boom.  I have also discussed with Stan the feasibility of using the 
stays coupled with posts inserted into the Captain's Chair sockets; or 
using the topping lift and boom to hoist a tent-like structure 10 feet 
above the cockpit space.

I think Stan is a truly gifted engineer, and probably the best sailboat 
engineer in the world.  If I'm not sure I've got a better answer, I 
always go with Stan's approach.

Stan's central point regarding boom rooms seems to be that even for 
people who use it frequently, boom room deployment will account for less 
than 25% of the total time spent on the boat.  You don't want to mess up 
the other 75% of the time, and the actual sailing, trying to deal with 
paraphernalia you don't really need in the first place.

I think he is right about this point.  I have rejected the Bimini room 
approach (used by Roger) because I don't want to carry around a Bimini 
all the time, nor do I want to stow a Bimini at home when not in use, 
nor do I want to impulsively decide to sleep over in the boat, only to 
find the boom room isn't there.

There are many structural alternatives to Stan's boom room, as shown in 
the MacGregor boom room pictures posted by Jim Bunnell 
(http://www.dowsar.com/images/26mde_l.jpg    
http://www.dowsar.com/images/canvas_l.jpg) but these immediately raise 
the windage issues mentioned by Bruce.  It is my sense that Stan's boom 
rooms can withstand moderate windage, and I am disinclined to try to 
improve on something that we already know works--especially if it is 
something Stan built that has gone through several generations to get to 
where it is.

My guess, and this is just a guess, is that when push comes to shove 
Stan can't make a nickel on his boom room.  He can't sew them himself.  
He doesn't make enough of them to teach people to make them in his own 
shop.  And when he looks for ways to give himself more margin, his 
suppliers suggest cutting corners, and cheapening the product--something 
Stan is constitutionally unable to do.  If he raises the price to the 
point where he has a reasonable profit,  nobody buys them.

I think the trick for us, and I don't know if we can do it, is to try to 
get Stan's existing product built to his specifications at a price where 
he can make a profit on each one sold.  If anyone can suggest 
improvements to the product, we should ask Stan to review the ideas.  It 
will only pay for Stan to spend even a minute thinking about this if the 
end result is that he can make money for his time and experience.

If you have any time, please look around in Shanghai.  If you have 
business contacts in China, please ask for their help in locating 
suppliers. 

This idea should work, the only question is whether we have the 
resources to help Stan make it work.  I don't know the answer, but if we 
use our heads, and those of us with contacts reach out, maybe we can at 
least know if this is a possible partial solution to Stan's Lament.

Bill Effros

Bradley, David wrote:

>Hi, Bill.  I wasn't sure from the earlier mails on this whether there is
>still a need to improve the boom room design and prototype it, or get
>the manufacturing cost down, or both.  It seems like Stan would need to
>be pretty set on the design before setting up the supplier arrangement,
>and the start up costs might be significant.  I'm happy to buy whatever
>it is GB is offering when the time comes, and if committing up front
>helps to set up a new arrangement I'm happy to do so.
>
>I'll be in Shanghai next week.  Can't imagine there is anything I can do
>there to help, but let me know if you think of something.  I'll let you
>know if I see any cool Chinese boom rooms.
>
>Dave
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:26 AM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
>
>I would be interested as long as Stan is the Exclusive importer of the
>products.  All the details, margins, engineering and productions are in
>the
>Stan & Brad realm,  Me, I just buy 'em as long it has the designer
>label...Boat accessories and fashions by Stan Spitzer......(boy, talk
>about
>Old Navy)
>
>Chris G
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>To: "R22 List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 9:21 PM
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
>
>
>  
>
>>Brad Haslett emailed me off-list regarding our discussion of boom
>>    
>>
>rooms,
>  
>
>>etc. which he has been following while vacationing in China.
>>
>>Brad asked if anyone would have an interest in his exploring Chinese
>>manufacture of Boom Rooms, Sails, Pop-Top Enclosures, Cockpit and
>>    
>>
>Cabin
>  
>
>>Cushions, Cockpit Fill in Boards, -- all the little stuff the Chinese
>>can make for a fraction of what it costs to manufacture in the US.
>>
>>I have not asked Stan about this, and I don't think Brad has either,
>>however it goes without saying that if Stan doesn't like the idea,
>>    
>>
>Brad
>  
>
>>is not going to do it.  Stan would make money on every item made in
>>China, and whatever he says is his cut, that's what he'll get.  There
>>will be no negotiation on this.
>>
>>But before he even begins the project, Brad wants to know how the
>>ultimate consumers feel about this idea.  If Brad can set up
>>manufacturing in China with Stan's approval, would Rhodes owners buy
>>    
>>
>the
>  
>
>>Chinese made products?
>>
>>Stan would have to provide the original patterns and specifications,
>>    
>>
>but
>  
>
>>that is all Stan would have to do.  Brad believes he can set up a
>>reliable manufacturing operation in China that will produce any of
>>    
>>
>these
>  
>
>>products to Stan's satisfaction at a lower cost than Stan can get them
>>produced in the US.
>>
>>5 of us indicated an interest in Boom Rooms.  Me, Chris, Dave, Bruce,
>>and maybe Bob.  (Did I miss anyone?)  I would be willing to be the
>>guinea pig on this. How do the rest of you feel?  Bob, if we could
>>    
>>
>bring
>  
>
>>the price down, at what price would you be a player?
>>
>>What about people who want Pop Top Enclosures, or Battened IMF sails,
>>    
>>
>or
>  
>
>>cockpit fill in cushions?  Is there a price for these items that would
>>prompt you to take money out of your pocket and put it on the table?
>>
>>Look at Stan's options prices on his web site
>>(http://www.rhodes22.com/super_options.html).  Is there something you
>>would actually buy if the price were lower?  If so, what would the
>>    
>>
>price
>  
>
>>have to be?
>>
>>Brad is returning to the US shortly, and doesn't have much time to see
>>if he can set up something like this.  If you think this is a terrible
>>idea, please speak up quickly so we all know where we stand.
>>
>>I think this is an interesting idea if Brad can actually do it.  It is
>>something we can all do to put more money in Stan's pocket right away,
>>while buying parts for our boats at a lower cost.  It's a win-win...if
>>Brad can pull it off.
>>
>>Please note.  Brad is a commercial airline pilot who no longer owns a
>>Rhodes 22.  There is nothing in this deal for him.  He will always
>>    
>>
>make
>  
>
>>more money flying an airplane than getting involved in a crazy
>>    
>>
>sailboat
>  
>
>>spare parts Chinese manufacturing scheme.  He just happens to be in
>>China right now, saw Stan's Lament, and asked if there was anything he
>>could do to help.
>>
>>Bill Effros
>>__________________________________________________
>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>    
>>
>__________________________________________________
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>
>  
>
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