[Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2 (for Chris G.)
Philip Esteban
3drecon at comcast.net
Mon Aug 29 00:16:38 EDT 2005
Chris,
I was only asking philosophically in the context of the "argument". My wife
and I hope to purchase a Rhodes new or recycled as soon as we work out some
of the logistics. I don't want to see anything happen to GBI before we buy,
or after for that matter. We think the Rhodes is a great product.
Philip
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of Chris Geankoplis
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:42 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
Phil,
I think not, my old F150's seat is worn out so I bought seat covers and
they are not from Ford. In 1968 I was sailing around the Med in an 18 foot
lightning and would raise the floor boards up and place them in special
sockets at the level of the bench seats, put custom cushions over them
which created one giant bed (with the centerboard cap dividing the bed
somewhat. Now this is the concept of "filler cushions" and is not unique to
a Rhodes, iwith my current Rhodes I made my own cushions, not as nice as
Stan's but they are serviceable, and I have no problem doing so. But,
something as specific as the Boomroom or Poptop cover is Stan's and that is
a no brainer, he designed them and the solution (the best in this case) is
his design, so he gets his dues. There is no way we can write a set of
rules, rather we use our best judgment and follow our consciences.
Chris G.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Esteban" <3drecon at comcast.net>
To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
> Another philosophical question. You own an automobile and the seats wear
> out. You price reupholstering and decide to do it yourself. Do you owe
the
> car manufacturer a royalty?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of Chris Geankoplis
> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:44 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
>
>
> Bill,
> Well thought out recap and questions. I have a feeling there is
no
> black or white for a lot of the area you have covered. It will, in the
end,
> boil down to a person's values and personal beliefs. I can't speak for
> others but if it is a unique "Stan design" than Stan should get his due.
> Sometimes you don't sell a product but rather a solution to a problem.
> Often there is one problem and many soultions, and what is so true for
this
> boat is Stan's is often (but not always) the best. I guess to quote Spike
> Lee "do the right thing" which for each person may be quite different.
> Chris G
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:31 PM
> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
>
>
> > Wally,
> >
> > This entire extended thread works off Stan's Lament posted previously.
> >
> > As I understood what Stan said, he was lamenting the fact that it hurts
> > him, both psychologically and materially, when people pick his brains
> > and then work around him to buy his product from someone else without
> > ever compensating him for all the time and effort he has put into the
> deal.
> >
> > Stan put forth the idea of paying him a commission for boat resales,
> > even if he had no direct part in the deal. Many people said they
> > thought that was a good idea, but none of the people who thought it was
> > a good idea were actually selling a boat. Everyone thought it was a
> > good idea for someone else to send Stan money for doing nothing.
> >
> > Then someone had an idea of writing a book, and instead of making money
> > on the book, letting Stan get the money because the book was about
> > Stan's boat.
> >
> > Brad suggested that maybe we could outsource some of Stan's
> > non-essential parts to China so Stan could sell more of these
> > accessories, have less direct responsibility for their manufacture, and
> > make the same amount on every item sold.
> >
> > So now I am asking the question, and it's just a question, of whether
> > people feel this concept should extend even to things we make for
> > ourselves where we use Stan's design as a template. Should Stan get a
> > royalty on these things? Your Boom Room is not a copy of Stan's Boom
> > Room. It performs the same function. It works for you. You and Roger
> > spent time working it out. If I copy your idea, should I send you
> > something for your time and trouble? Would you have had the idea for a
> > Boom Room if you never saw Stan's?
> >
> > If you copy Stan's cushions, should you send Stan something for his time
> > and trouble?
> >
> > Of course, this is all on the honor system. Stan never patented or
> > copyrighted his work. But we are honorable people. Is this the right
> > thing to do?
> >
> > The guy who patented the intermittent windshield wiper died a multi
> > millionaire after suing virtually every automobile maker in world for
> > infringing on his patent by developing and deploying their own
> > intermittent windshield wipers.
> >
> > I am willing to bet you anything that you wouldn't come up with the
> > right specs on cockpit cushions the first time you tried without using
> > Stan's cushions as a template. You are not even thinking of trying
> > this. I'm sure Stan didn't come up with the right specs the first time,
> > either. Should you pay a royalty for the work you copy? In the
> > computer field you are constantly paying royalties to copy things you
> > could copy and use for nothing. Why doesn't this extend to boats?
> >
> > I am sure you can make less expensive cockpit cushions that are
> > perfectly satisfactory from your point of view compared to the cockpit
> > cushions Stan has offered to sell to you--if you copy Stan's. If you
> > make them from your own design, and go through your own trial and error,
> > I don't think you will be able to develop the first set of cockpit
> > cushions for less than Stan has offered them to you.
> >
> > I think this is Stan's lament. It is shared by many creative pioneers,
> > and often sinks their businesses. After they figure things out, make
> > prototypes, develop manufacturing, finance inventory, etc. somebody else
> > comes along and says "I can copy that for less than you are willing to
> > sell it to me."
> >
> > How do we feel about Stan's Lament when it directly impacts our own
> > costs? Are we willing to send money to Stan for knocking off his
> > designs--even if we are only doing it for our own boat? Did you buy
> > your cushions from Stan originally, or did you buy them from someone
> > else, and now that they have worn out you want to knock off Stan's
> > design and rebuild them yourself?
> >
> > Apparently everyone takes this question as a personal attack. It is
> > meant as a philosophical question. For my part, I am willing to pay
> > full price for Stan's boom room and use my boom room to make more booms
> > rooms that can be sold at a lower price to other people on this list
> > provided that Stan makes at least as much money as he would have
> otherwise.
> >
> > I do not always behave this way, but I happen to like this man, and I
> > happen to like his product. What do you think? I will not judge you
> > depending on how you answer. You may think I'm a crackpot. You may
> > think my philosophical question is fine theoretically, but that you need
> > to save money and you can do so by copying Stan's design instead of
> > buying the cushions from Stan, or asking to buy a set of plans from him.
> >
> > I can understand these answers to my question. But I think these are
> > the questions Stan is asking of the entire list, and I think the
> > questions deserve a response. Failing to get that response, I can also
> > understand why Stan would decide to pull the plug on our list to make it
> > more difficult for people to spread the knowledge Stan has given us for
> > nothing to people who think it is OK to use that knowledge to deprive
> > Stan of the ability to make money on his own products.
> >
> > Just one man's opinion, but I'd love to hear what you and others think.
> >
> > Bill Effros
> >
> >
> >
> > Wally Buck wrote:
> >
> > > Bill, I have no idea what you are talking about? I thought your crazy
> > > scheme had Stan selling the Chinese parts? Are you still talking about
> > > cushions? Anne and others gave the GB cushions 2 thumbs up. I have
> > > already gotten pricing from Stan and I am considering purchase verse
> > > homemade. Are you suggesting that one should not make their own
> > > replacement cushions.....Are you the riddler? :-) Serioulsy Bill you
> > > have lost me.
> > >
> > > Stan and GB have no worries from me. Not much chance i will be making
> > > R22 cushions for resale.
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > >> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:04:30 -0400
> > >>
> > >> Wally,
> > >>
> > >> I interpreted Stan's Lament as a plea to get something for his
> > >> troubles (read "intellectual property"). When it came to selling the
> > >> boat off-list, everyone said sure, they thought other people should
> > >> send Stan 5%.
> > >>
> > >> What about copying his designs? Should Stan get 5% of his list price
> > >> when people use his designs as a template and make them for
themselves?
> > >>
> > >> I think we know each other well enough for you to know I do not
> > >> intend this as a personal attack on you. (Nor did I intend to attack
> > >> Todd, Lou, Roger, Alan, or any of the other people on this list who
> > >> have used Stan's designs as a template and not compensated Stan.)
> > >>
> > >> I ask you this question as an honest inquiry to a lament posted by
> > >> Stan, and I ask you to think about it.
> > >>
> > >> This is not an easy questions, and I am not "Mr. Clean" on this
> > >> issue. I steal intellectual property from others--just not from
Stan.
> > >>
> > >> Bill Effros
> > >>
> > >> Wally Buck wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Bill, Thanks for your response. To clarify. I have cushions in
> > >>> cockpit now but they are shot. I do like the folding chairs but I
> > >>> would rather put that money toward new cushions.
> > >>>
> > >>> I was wondering if you added all of these other seating devices
> > >>> because the cushions were uncomfortable. Your first description of
> > >>> seating arrangements didn't mention comfort of cockpit cushions
> > >>> alone. Your solution would have me purchasing 2 Captains Chairs, 2
> > >>> bean bag chairs, and 2 folding chairs from West along with all new
> > >>> cockpit cushions. That is not an option.
> > >>>
> > >>> i like an uncluttered cockpit as well as uncluttered cabin. Anne
> > >>> says her GB cushions are comfortable so that answered my question.
:-)
> > >>>
> > >>> Wally
> > >>>
> > >>> Lawn is mowed - NOW I am off to lake!
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > >>>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:49:00 -0400
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wally,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I guess I never even considered sailing without cushions on the
> > >>>> fiberglass benches. Even though I frequently sail single handed,
> > >>>> and always sail from Captain's Seats, I always put out Stan's
> > >>>> cushions--every single time. They are part of the boat, as far as
> > >>>> I'm concerned. I think the proportions of everything are better
> > >>>> for sailing when the cushions are in place. Also, as noted
> > >>>> previously, I don't bang myself up as much with the cushions
> > >>>> protecting me from harder surfaces.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I only sit on the cushions when hove-to, or at anchor, and I guess
> > >>>> they are comfortable, enough. But they are not as comfortable as
> > >>>> the cushions with bean bag chairs on top of them, or the cushions
> > >>>> with "Elton's" folding seats on top of them. (I never put the bean
> > >>>> bag chairs or folding seats directly on the fiberglass
> > >>>> benches--that is not as comfortable as Stan's cushions alone.)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When guests come aboard my boat they always marvel at how
> > >>>> comfortable they all are--not just the person who grabs the other
> > >>>> Captain's seat. My boat has 6 comfortable seats while sailing.
> > >>>> They are all based on putting Stan's cockpit cushions over the hard
> > >>>> benches. Since I sail the boat upright, people do not shift back
> > >>>> and forth every time I tack. They find a comfortable seat, and
> > >>>> stay in it for the entire ride.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My cockpit, with Stan's cushions and my additional seats, is more
> > >>>> comfortable for all of the passengers and crew than any other boat
> > >>>> I've ever been in.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I would be using Stan's cockpit cushions for seating. Are they
> > >>>>> confortable?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Wally
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > >>>>>> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:37:29 -0400
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Wally,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I have Stan's cockpit cushions. I almost never sit directly on
> > >>>>>> them. I generally sit in a captain's chair, with my feet on the
> > >>>>>> cushions. I also have 2 folding seats (available from West for
> > >>>>>> around $50), and 2 beanbag chairs purchased from the beanbag lady
> > >>>>>> at a boat show for around $75 each. All 6 seats can be
> > >>>>>> comfortably deployed simultaneously. Each seat is more
> > >>>>>> comfortable than any seat that comes standard in any sailboat
> > >>>>>> I've ever been on.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Stan's cushions fit perfectly, and have proved very durable.
> > >>>>>> They are 7 years old and still look brand new. I store them
> > >>>>>> (along with all the other seats) on the settee when not in use.
> > >>>>>> I put them out immediately every time I go on board. This takes
> > >>>>>> around 14 seconds. I like them for kneeling when I am pulling in
> > >>>>>> anchors or putting out fenders. Every now and again I kneel to
> > >>>>>> do something after I have put away the cushions. Boy those seats
> > >>>>>> are hard!
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Bill, It is hard to guess what I would want to spend. You need
> > >>>>>>> to determine production and shipping costs. From there add the
> > >>>>>>> desired mark up. That is the price. I am sure GB does not want
> > >>>>>>> to carry large cost for inventory. I would suspect that prices
> > >>>>>>> could be quoted for different sizes. Get quotes for 5, 10 25,
> > >>>>>>> each. I have no idea who to go to for "quotes" in China but it
> > >>>>>>> sounds like there might be folks on this list that do.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Initially I would want new cockpit cushions with fill in. Also
> > >>>>>>> cabin cushions. I am considering doing this myself. I am also
> > >>>>>>> getting price locally. One drawbck to doing them myself is the
> > >>>>>>> most likely will look like crap. Having them done locally means
> > >>>>>>> I can test foam and not pay shipping. Ordering from GB means
> > >>>>>>> they will fit right but I don't want standard foam. In the cabin
> > >>>>>>> I want to go with 3 inches of foam with 1 inch of memory foam
> > >>>>>>> glued on top side. I have seen cushions made this way and they
> > >>>>>>> are great for sleeping and sitting. I am still working on best
> > >>>>>>> foam for cockpit (with fill in).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Wally
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> > >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:02:44 -0400
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Wally,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Can you put numbers on your desires? I mean this quite
> > >>>>>>>> seriously. I know you use your boat, and I know you want to be
> > >>>>>>>> fair to Stan. At what price would you buy various items from
> > >>>>>>>> Stan? Which items would you be most interested in? What would
> > >>>>>>>> you be willing to pay? You will not be held to any of this--it
> > >>>>>>>> is just part of an exercise to see if what we all want can be
> > >>>>>>>> done.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> If you are asking me if I have a problem purchasing Chinese
> > >>>>>>>>> made boat parts from Stan ....If I place my order and send
> > >>>>>>>>> payment to Stan the source doesn't concern me too much. I
> > >>>>>>>>> would prefer to buy "USA" but I have owned many imported cars.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> You also asked if price is holding me back from purchasing
> > >>>>>>>>> boat goodies from GB. The answer is yes. I would love to have
> > >>>>>>>>> new cabin cushions, new cockpit cushions, cokcpit fill-in
> > >>>>>>>>> cushions, pop-top enclosure, bimini. The boom room really
> > >>>>>>>>> doesn't interest me. We overnight quite a bit. If it is stormy
> > >>>>>>>>> we go in cabin. If it is nice we like the view from cockpit.
> > >>>>>>>>> We also swim and fish. I am trying to decide if I should
> > >>>>>>>>> spend the money on my R22 or perhaps sell and use the cash
> > >>>>>>>>> from all of those upgrades for .......
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I forgot, add the battened IMF to my wish list as well.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Wally
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> To: R22 List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> > >>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:21:37 -0400
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett emailed me off-list regarding our discussion of
> > >>>>>>>>>> boom rooms, etc. which he has been following while
> > >>>>>>>>>> vacationing in China.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Brad asked if anyone would have an interest in his exploring
> > >>>>>>>>>> Chinese manufacture of Boom Rooms, Sails, Pop-Top Enclosures,
> > >>>>>>>>>> Cockpit and Cabin Cushions, Cockpit Fill in Boards, -- all
> > >>>>>>>>>> the little stuff the Chinese can make for a fraction of what
> > >>>>>>>>>> it costs to manufacture in the US.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I have not asked Stan about this, and I don't think Brad has
> > >>>>>>>>>> either, however it goes without saying that if Stan doesn't
> > >>>>>>>>>> like the idea, Brad is not going to do it. Stan would make
> > >>>>>>>>>> money on every item made in China, and whatever he says is
> > >>>>>>>>>> his cut, that's what he'll get. There will be no negotiation
> > >>>>>>>>>> on this.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> But before he even begins the project, Brad wants to know how
> > >>>>>>>>>> the ultimate consumers feel about this idea. If Brad can set
> > >>>>>>>>>> up manufacturing in China with Stan's approval, would Rhodes
> > >>>>>>>>>> owners buy the Chinese made products?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Stan would have to provide the original patterns and
> > >>>>>>>>>> specifications, but that is all Stan would have to do. Brad
> > >>>>>>>>>> believes he can set up a reliable manufacturing operation in
> > >>>>>>>>>> China that will produce any of these products to Stan's
> > >>>>>>>>>> satisfaction at a lower cost than Stan can get them produced
> > >>>>>>>>>> in the US.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> 5 of us indicated an interest in Boom Rooms. Me, Chris,
> > >>>>>>>>>> Dave, Bruce, and maybe Bob. (Did I miss anyone?) I would be
> > >>>>>>>>>> willing to be the guinea pig on this. How do the rest of you
> > >>>>>>>>>> feel? Bob, if we could bring the price down, at what price
> > >>>>>>>>>> would you be a player?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> What about people who want Pop Top Enclosures, or Battened
> > >>>>>>>>>> IMF sails, or cockpit fill in cushions? Is there a price for
> > >>>>>>>>>> these items that would prompt you to take money out of your
> > >>>>>>>>>> pocket and put it on the table?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Look at Stan's options prices on his web site
> > >>>>>>>>>> (http://www.rhodes22.com/super_options.html). Is there
> > >>>>>>>>>> something you would actually buy if the price were lower? If
> > >>>>>>>>>> so, what would the price have to be?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Brad is returning to the US shortly, and doesn't have much
> > >>>>>>>>>> time to see if he can set up something like this. If you
> > >>>>>>>>>> think this is a terrible idea, please speak up quickly so we
> > >>>>>>>>>> all know where we stand.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I think this is an interesting idea if Brad can actually do
> > >>>>>>>>>> it. It is something we can all do to put more money in
> > >>>>>>>>>> Stan's pocket right away, while buying parts for our boats at
> > >>>>>>>>>> a lower cost. It's a win-win...if Brad can pull it off.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Please note. Brad is a commercial airline pilot who no
> > >>>>>>>>>> longer owns a Rhodes 22. There is nothing in this deal for
> > >>>>>>>>>> him. He will always make more money flying an airplane than
> > >>>>>>>>>> getting involved in a crazy sailboat spare parts Chinese
> > >>>>>>>>>> manufacturing scheme. He just happens to be in China right
> > >>>>>>>>>> now, saw Stan's Lament, and asked if there was anything he
> > >>>>>>>>>> could do to help.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> __________________________________________________
> > >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>
> > >> __________________________________________________
> > >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> __________________________________________________
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>
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