[Rhodes22-list] Nuclear Energy Replies

Wed Feb 23 12:48:02 EST 2005

Bill,

Do you honestly believe that North Korea could have implemented a successful
"Manhattan Project" style nuclear weapons program in the time since Bush
declared them part of an "Axis of Evil" in the January, 2002 speech?  It
took the United States over 4 years, an incredible amount of resources, and
over 2 Billion dollars in the 1940's to build the 1st atomic bomb.  I would
say it's far more likely that North Korea started building it's nuclear
materials enrichment facilities at about the same time as the nuclear power
plants were being built.  Naturally, these facilities were separate from the
nuclear power plants where the US had television cameras and inspections.
It also took a long time since these facilities needed to be kept secret
from the US spy satellites, pesky reconnaissance aircraft over flights, and
North Korea was strapped for cash.  But, once the bomb making facilities
were ready to receive the feedstock, North Korea was only too willing to
seize upon any excuse to turn off the television cameras at their nuclear
power plants and kick the inspectors out.  At the same time, North Korea was
developing its ballistic missile technology, all with the aid of funding
from terrorist groups.  Gee, a brutal communist dictator turned out to not
be trustworthy, what a surprise!

When did I minimize the threat of the spread of nuclear technology?  What
does Madame Curie's death from radiation sickness, which in her time was not
well understood, have to do with anything?  Alfred Nobel was so shocked and
heartsick at the destruction and suffering caused by his new high explosives
that, upon his death, his will specified a large portion of his fortune be
used to create a foundation that would give out awards in various fields of
science, literature, and world peace.  Don't you think it somewhat ironic
that Jimmy Carter was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 for negotiating
a treaty that enabled North Korea to become the nuclear threat they now
represent?  This was appeasement on at least the same scale as Neville
Chamberlain's famous treaty with Nazi Germany on the eve of world war II.

I only blame people for things they've actually done.  Clinton's and
Carter's involvement with the 1994 treaty with North Korea and subsequent
events leading up to them getting nukes are matters of public record, Bill.

Hopefully, Iran doesn't already have Nukes.  The object of the game is to
prevent that from happening.  That was also part of the reason for invading
Iraq.  Or, will you only be satisfied & willing to take action when all of
our enemies demonstrably have nukes, say by vaporizing Washington D.C.?

Sometimes, I just don't understand the way your mind works, Bill.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Nuclear Energy Replies

> Rob,
>
> Roger neglected to mention that North Korea didn't have nuclear weapons
> when Carter and Clinton were in office.  As part of the agreement, they
> had the right to develop nuclear power plants (because unlike Iran, no
> one could say they are awash in oil.)  Under the guise of "peaceful use
> of nuclear energy" they developed bomb materials using a different
> technique than the one prohibited under the terms of their agreements
> with us.
>
> When our brilliant current President  ("The Great Negotiator" we will
> call him) called North Korea part of an "axis of evil" in January 2002,
> the North Korean government accused Washington of targeting North Korea
> for a "preemptive nuclear attack." In September 2002, the Bush
> administration released a report which emphasized pre-emptively
> attacking countries developing weapons of mass destruction, explicitly
> mentioning North Korea.
>
> The Great Negotiator, after branding Iraq, North Korea, and Iran as the
> "Axis of Evil", elected to first invade Iraq to find the Weapons of Mass
> Destruction the world knew it didn't have.  The message was clear--Bush
> won't invade if you actually have weapons of mass destruction, so North
> Korea immediately set about proving that it actually had Nuclear
> Weapons.  They didn't have them before Bush.  They may not have them
> now.  But they told us they've now got them.  Just like Iraq, we had
> weapons inspectors as part of the treaty, and we knew they didn't have
> nuclear weapons until "The Great Negotiator" stepped in to save the day.
>
> The same is true of Iran.  If they've got them now, they didn't have
> them when Carter and Clinton were in office.
>
> Madame Curie (who died of radiation poisoning) would be spinning in her
> grave if she knew that people like Roger were minimizing the dangers of
> the spread of nuclear technology, while at virtually the same time
> blaming others for the spread of nuclear weapons.
>
> Bill Effros
>
> PS -- Alfred Nobel had no problem with the spread of dangerous
> technology--he invented dynamite, and became rich manufacturing it, and
> other high explosives, all over the world.
>
> Roger Pihlaja wrote:
>
> >Rob,
> >
> >I'm sorry, since it was only a decade ago, I assumed everyone knew the
> >story.  Then President Bill Clinton sent ex-President Jimmy Carter to
North
> >Korea to negotiate this deal.
> >
> >Carter & Clinton negotiated a treaty which gave the North Koreans massive
US
> >aid including oil and 2 nuclear power plants in exchange for the North
> >Koreans pledge of "Peace In Our Times"!  Carter won the 1994 Nobel Peace
> >Prize for brokering this deal.  It just goes to show that even the North
> >Koreans can be negotiated with if you just give them whatever they want!
> >The North Koreans went on to develop nukes under the cover of a civilian,
> >supposedly peaceful, nuclear power program.  The rest as they say is
> >history.  It's not partisan, it's a matter of record.
> >
> >If it weren't so potentially dangerous, the whole story would really be
> >quite amusing.  Poor Alfred Nobel must be spinning in his grave!
> >
> >Roger Pihlaja
> >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Rob Lowe" <rlowe at vt.edu>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:14 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Nuclear Energy Replies
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Gee Roger, do I detect a bit of partaininship in your response?  I seem
to
> >>remember there were two presidents between Carter and Clinton, namely
> >>
> >>
> >Reagan
> >
> >
> >>and Bush the first.  I seem to recall them being part of the appeasement
> >>process too.
> >>
> >>Rob Lowe
> >>S/V Getaway
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> >>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:09 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Nuclear Energy Replies
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Ed,
> >>>
> >>>Boy, scary stuff!  It's starting to sound more and more like my
fearless
> >>>prediction from late September, 2004 about an Israeli military strike
on
> >>>
> >>>
> >>the
> >>
> >>
> >>>Iranian nuclear industry is going to come true.  It's currently late
> >>>February, 2005 and my original prediction said it would happen within a
> >>>year, or by late September, 2005.  I'll stand by my original timing.
> >>>
> >>>Israel absolutely cannot tolerate an Iran with nuclear weapons.  It's a
> >>>
> >>>
> >>life
> >>
> >>
> >>>or death issue for them.
> >>>
> >>>Fortunately, Israel does not have Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>negotiating
> >>
> >>
> >>>"on their behalf" like the United States did in 1994 with North Korea.
> >>>
> >>>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>>still can't believe Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 for that
> >>>
> >>>
> >>craven
> >>
> >>
> >>>piece of appeasement.  Now, North Korea has nuclear weapons using the
> >>>"peaceful" nuclear power reactors that Carter & Clinton gave them as
> >>>
> >>>
> >part
> >
> >
> >>of
> >>
> >>
> >>>that deal.  Gee, a tyranical communist dictator went back on his word
> >>>
> >>>
> >and
> >
> >
> >>>treaty obligations and started building nuclear weapons about 10
minutes
> >>>after the ink was dry on the 1994 agreement.  Who would have ever
> >>>
> >>>
> >expected
> >
> >
> >>>that?  Clinton & Carter should be tried for high treason for setting
the
> >>>world up for another 50 years of nuclear stand-off with a communist
> >>>dictatorship.  That's a best-case scenario, if we're "lucky".  The
> >>>worst-case scenarios get considerably scarier.
> >>>
> >>>Allow Iran to get nukes?  I don't think so!
> >>>
> >>>On a brighter note, I saw the 1st sign of spring today.  The 2005 West
> >>>Marine and Defender Marine Master Catalogs arrived via the US Snail
> >>>
> >>>
> >Mail!
> >
> >
> >>>Can ice breakup be far behind?
> >>>
> >>>2000 mockingbirds = two kilomockingbirds  cute! :)
> >>>
> >>>Roger Pihlaja
> >>>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net>
> >>>To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:02 AM
> >>>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Nuclear Energy Replies
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Roger:
> >>>>You will not convince Bill or his fellow travelers of what you are
> >>>>saying. Iran and for that matter, Syria are just trying to help their
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>people
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>to better lives.  And what was that message the Israelis let slip in
> >>>>international circles in the last couple of days?  That they can not
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>wait
> >>
> >>
> >>>>for the Europeans to resolve the issue.  I guess we all better sail
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>while
> >>
> >>
> >>>we
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>can, it is liable to get messy over their.
> >>>>
> >>>>Some recent info:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>www.islamonline.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service
_
> >
> >
> >>>>id=6795
> >>>>
> >>>>(page down to nuclear discussion) http://billroggio.com/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_i
d
> >
> >
> >>>>=7062
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>www.aljazeera.com/cgi-in/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_ID
=
> >
> >
> >>>>6945
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Ed K
> >>>>Greenville, SC, USA
> >>>>Addendum:  2000 mockingbirds = two kilomockingbirds
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >>>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Steve
> >>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:14 AM
> >>>>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Nuclear Energy
> >>>>
> >>>>Well said, Roger.
> >>>>Steve
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Bill,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>You have to wonder why they want it.  Iran is
> >>>>>sitting on proven reserves of
> >>>>>about 1 trillion barrels of crude oil as well as
> >>>>>copious quantities of
> >>>>>natural gas.  The country has excellent warm water,
> >>>>>ice-free port facilities
> >>>>>to ship their crude oil and natural gas.  They have
> >>>>>a pretty good
> >>>>>intra-country pipeline and refinery infrastructure.
> >>>>>They have zero reserves
> >>>>>of uranium.  At the present rate of energy
> >>>>>production & given Iran's current
> >>>>>population, GDP, & growth rate, their proven fossil
> >>>>>fuel reserves will
> >>>>>supply all their internal energy and export needs
> >>>>>for the next 50-75 years,
> >>>>>even if the country gets heavily into manufacturing
> >>>>>petrochemicals like
> >>>>>polyethylene, polypropylene, nylon, etc.  That's
> >>>>>enough time to build and
> >>>>>use up at least 1 generation of nuclear power plants
> >>>>>before they are even
> >>>>>necessary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Gee, do you think maybe, just maybe, Iran has an
> >>>>>alternate agenda here?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>
> >>>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>To: "R22 List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:52 PM
> >>>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Nucular Energy
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Been meaning to ask.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>How 'bout that Iran?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Do they get to have nuclear energy, too?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Or is it only safe enough for us?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Bill Effros
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>__________________________________________________
> >>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>__________________________________________________
> >>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>__________________________________________________
> >>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
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