[Rhodes22-list] what is list etiquette? Ignore That!

Tue Jun 14 00:19:04 EDT 2005

Bill, you put it better than I ever could with this comment.  I am constantly amazed at the people who think we can do whatever we want, and because it is the U.S. and we have higher principles, it is okay.  Yes, they did something outrageous on 9/11.  Unforgivable.  Oh, wait, wasn't there something about loving your enemy?  anyway, sorry, I'm easily distracted.....

that didn't give us the right to mistreat our prisoners and disrespect their religious beliefs - I thought the whole thing about being American is that we believe in human rights and treating people right (oh, sorry, don't ask the Native Americans about that one!) 

I think this whole thing, from 9/12 on, has been badly mishandled.  The only right thing that was done was invading Afghanistan and taking down the Taliban. But, we were so anxious to get Saddam Hussein (daddy's old friend), that we half-assed the job and left before the job was really finished, and Afghanistan is well on it's way to becoming the world's newest narco-state.  Iraq has been a mess since it was formed at the end of WW1, and what we did pretty much compounded the last 80 years of problems.  

sorry for my silence - the end of the school year was pretty hectic around my house, followed up by about 3 weeks of traveling and running around.  anyway, I have spent tonight reading all the posts since about April 1 - I had over 1500 in my R22 folder!  this is as far as I have gotten by 1am......

I love the list...you guys are a great group and I enjoy reading about all the fun you are having.  I really want my own R22 - looks like that won't happen this summer, but we haven't given up on it. 

we were out on Lake Jordan with the kids on Saturday.  who owns the R22 parked in Crosswinds Marina?  just curious, is it someone on the list?   

Cheryl
> 
> "killing people over a damned book is stupid"
> 
> The Holy Roman Empire.
> The Crusades.
> The Inquisition.
> The Holocaust.
> 
> Please people.  The list goes on and on. I think what you mean to 
> say is similar to what everyone else says:  "Killing people over 
> someone else's damned book is stupid, but I've never seen a problem 
> about killing over my damned book.  That is noble; patriotic; holy, 
> ... "
> 
> Bill Effros
> 
> PS -- If you are Christian, Jewish, Mormon; Unitarian; Protestant; 
> Catholic; Baptist; Fundamentalist; Creationist; or a follower of 
> Rev. Moon--"their God" is the same God you worship, and Muslims 
> trace their beliefs to the same books, and believe that those books 
> are all the word of the same God.
> 
> PPS -- Cheryl, be a mensch--you must have something to say--you started this.
> 
> 
> 
> Rik Sandberg wrote:
> 
> > Slim,
> >
> > You know, we can reason and discuss how these people might feel 
> > on and on into infinity. But the bottom line is, killing people 
> > over a damned book is stupid..... pure and simple, whether the 
> > rumor about the toilet was true or not.
> >
> > I'll not be making excuses for these people to make behaviour 
> > like this seem somehow acceptable. I doubt their "God" would 
> > either.
> >
> > Your first statement about wasted breath is probably right on the 
> > mark though.
> >
> > Rik
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Alm <salm at mn.rr.com>
> > Sent: May 18, 2005 3:35 PM
> > To: Rhodes <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] what is list etiquette? Ignore That!
> >
> > Brad,
> >
> > Thanks.  I mostly agree with the article however calling for "perspective
> > and objectivity" is a waste of breath.  By definition, "extremists" are
> > incapable of that.  (And I don't just refer to Muslim extremists.)
> >
> > As I understand it, Islamic fundamentalists object to Democracy because it
> > puts men in charge of the law instead of Allah and the Koran--(Qu'ran?)  So
> > if the shoe were on the other foot, it would be like flushing the Bible AND
> > the Constitution.  That's the perspective WE need to keep in mind.  It's
> > easy for us to sit back and condemn the Muslim extremists for over-reacting
> > to a tiny little blurb that may or may not have been true, but if the Koran
> > IS your whole world, how could you not protest?  They already view
> > themselves as the losers and they're getting desperate.  Violent reactions
> > are as predictable as the sunrise when some country half way around the
> > world strips you of your entire life/value and crams their own ideology down
> > your throat.  What did we expect?
> >
> > What bugs me is what Don Rumsfeld had to say: "Oh, you've got to be very
> > careful what you say..."  WHAT?  Look who's talking?  Frankly, I wouldn't
> > doubt that the story was indeed true and Newsweek was pressured to retract
> > it.
> >
> > Slim
> >
> > On 5/18/05 11:01 AM, "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> Ric,
> >>
> >> I was responding to your post when my daughter put her
> >> elbow on the keyboard (I'm home all week playing Mr.
> >> Mom.)  Ignore that first post.  At least she didn't
> >> call 911 like she did when she was 1 1/2.  Those cops
> >> still think I'm lying.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I've been too busy to make any pithy political
> >> comments but not to busy to read.  Here's an article
> >> from today's Chicago Tribune.  Not only is it funny in
> >> its own way but dead on the money correct.  This is
> >> neither left nor right folks, just a fastball straight
> >> down the middle.
> >>
> >> Brad
> >> "CoraShen"
> >>
> >>
> >> Seeking sanity in the asylum
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> By Kathleen Parker
> >>
> >> May 18, 2005
> >>
> >> Reaction to an inaccurate Newsweek report that led
> >> recently to rioting and death in Afghanistan suggests
> >> that hysteria is, indeed, contagious.
> >>
> >> To briefly recap, Newsweek reported in a small blurb
> >> May 9 that American interrogators at Guantanamo Bay
> >> had flushed a Koran down a toilet in attempts to get
> >> Muslim terror suspects to talk. Once the Newsweek
> >> story was broadcast abroad, the usually reticent
> >> hate-America crowd erupted in mass pique. Havoc
> >> ensued. At least 15 Afghans died and many more were
> >> injured.
> >>
> >> All because of a story that may not have been true.
> >> The "knowledgeable U.S. government source" who told
> >> Newsweek's Michael Isikoff and John Barry about the
> >> flushing apparently wasn't so knowledgeable. At the
> >> risk of seeming insensitive, may I suggest that c'est
> >> la guerre and urge everyone to follow Dr. Lamaze's
> >> always-useful advice: Breathe deeply and focus.
> >>
> >> What we need here is a little perspective.
> >>
> >> First, we all can agree that flushing a Koran down a
> >> toilet, if physically possible, would be both
> >> insensitive and rude, though Westerners generally have
> >> a higher tolerance threshold for such offenses. Put it
> >> this way: You could flush a Bible down the toilet in
> >> front of Goober in Kabul, and it's unlikely that
> >> Mayberry suddenly would be awash in blood.
> >>
> >> Without disrespecting true believers of Islam, one
> >> also could debate the relative miseries of seeing our
> >> favorite scripture disappear into the plumbing versus,
> >> say, watching airplanes fly into buildings, killing
> >> thousands of innocents. Remember, these are terrorist
> >> suspects captured after 9/11, not kidnapped members of
> >> an Afghan boys choir.
> >>
> >> The apparent Newsweek mistake was regrettable, but we
> >> should beware of allowing ourselves to mirror the
> >> emotional reactions of people who were by no measure
> >> justified in their response--even if the story had
> >> been proven true.
> >>
> >> The same people foaming over a reported act of
> >> blasphemy didn't flinch while executing women for
> >> stepping outside sans burqa. I'm afraid my moral
> >> outrage in favor of the morally outrageous is tapped
> >> out.
> >>
> >> While the world was reacting in righteous indignation
> >> to the Newsweek report, another story was circulating
> >> about Turkish women in Germany being executed by
> >> family members in "honor killings" sanctioned by
> >> certain interpretations of the Koran. Their offense?
> >> Acting like Western women. Or, in the pithy words of a
> >> 14-year-old Turkish boy who was justifying an
> >> execution: "The whore lived like a German."
> >>
> >> Before the good Muslim world objects, let me assert
> >> what shouldn't need saying: Islam isn't the problem
> >> here. The problem is ignorance and the right-wing
> >> Islamist faction that will use the Koran for its
> >> purposes, whether to incite a riot or murder a woman
> >> who refuses to wear her headscarf. The enemy is
> >> extremism.
> >>
> >> I have no interest either in defending Newsweek or in
> >> justifying interrogators' methods, but let's be blunt:
> >> Those rampaging in Afghanistan didn't need a reason to
> >> riot; they needed an excuse. That the media provided
> >> one is regrettable, but that regret needs to be
> >> tempered by perspective and objectivity.
> >>
> >> Instead, much of the anger the past several days has
> >> been directed not at the Islamist extremists who went
> >> berserk, but at the reporters who apparently got the
> >> story wrong. What if they'd been right? Should
> >> Newsweek not have reported it? Would the riots have
> >> been justified if someone had flushed a Koran?
> >>
> >> We might debate those questions, but meanwhile we
> >> should resist the urge to overreact as some have in
> >> suggesting that the press should be restricted or
> >> stifled. Although imperfect, a free press is one of
> >> our nation's highest expressions of freedom and the
> >> thing that separates us from the same right-wing,
> >> authoritarian, extremist forces that we condemn. Yet,
> >> an alarming number of Americans, their faith in
> >> journalists damaged by recent scandals, have lost
> >> sight of the meaning and importance of a free press.
> >>
> >> A recent University of Connecticut survey found, for
> >> example, that only 14 percent of respondents knew that
> >> freedom of the press was part of the 1st Amendment.
> >> Only 55 percent of those surveyed strongly agreed that
> >> newspapers should be allowed "to publish freely
> >> without government approval of a story." Now there's a
> >> finding to warm the cockles of a Taliban heart.
> >>
> >> Once we start asking the government for permission to
> >> publish, we become partners in propaganda and cohorts
> >> of authoritarianism. Far better to risk mistakes--and
> >> even riots from the lunatic fringe--than to forfeit
> >> the right to question authority.
> >>
> >> Mistakes will be made, but freedom means living to
> >> say, "I'm sorry."
> >>
> >> Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist for the
> >> Orlando Sentinel, a Tribune newspaper. ----------
> >>
> >> E-mail: kparker at kparker.com
> >> Copyright ? 2005, Chicago Tribune
> >>
> >>
> >> --- brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> --- Rik Sandberg <sanderico at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Cheryl,
> >>>>
> >>>> Somehow, I don't think that "political screed" was
> >>>> all there was to that message, was it? Wasn't it
> >>>> just one of Ed's little signature addendums? I
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> think
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I'd do my best to get over it if you want to hang
> >>>> out on the Rhodes list, because, we talk about
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> most
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> anything here, sometimes even politics. Maybe it
> >>>> would be good if you went to
> >>>>
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>> and read the charter. Then you can decide what is
> >>>> appropriate .... or not and and decide whether you
> >>>> want to stay .... or not.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rik
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Cheryl O'Grady <cheryl.ogrady at mail.com>
> >>>> Sent: May 18, 2005 8:49 AM
> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] what is list etiquette?
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think it is kosher for someone to use my
> >>>> email address from the list to send political
> >>>> screed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is
> >>>> that good men do nothing."  Edmund Burke, Irish
> >>>> philosopher
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Yahoo! Mail
> >>> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the
> >>> tour:
> >>> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Mail
> >> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
> >> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>
> >>
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
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</blockquote>

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."  Edmund Burke, Irish philosopher