[Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain Question
Steve
rhodes2282 at yahoo.com
Tue Mar 22 07:04:27 EST 2005
To further explain for the simple minded like Wally.
If 15 to 20+ winds - what a good seamenship salior
needs to remember is all circumstances that could very
well happen. Sails blow out, motor breaks down, and
you last option to keep your boat off the rocks is
your anchor. Most Rhodes sailor are using Danforth.
But you should have 2 anchor on board. You want that
anchor to drop and dig in. Chain is needed in this
type of situation when down to your last option.
Or you can be like Wally; and just park the boat on
shore:-)
Steve
--- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wally
> Are you really that stupid???????? YOu sail on a
> river. If anyone need chain on their anchor; you
> do.
> But be stupid. When it come to sailing, nothing I
> have read that you have wrote; shows me that you
> know
> anything; especilly if you don't even know that you
> need chain on your anchor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Steve
>
>
>
> --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > You sound like a fair weather motor sailor. In the
> > conditions you described
> > your poor seamenship shows. When I am out in 20
> plus
> > my sails are up. In 20
> > my sailboat is easier to sail than motor. Perhaps
> > you should give it a try?
> > Testings ones skill is a good thing. Next time try
> > to work up the nerve to
> > hoist a sail when the wind kicks up. After all we
> > own sailboats.
> >
> > Wally
> >
> > >From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain
> Question
> > >Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:54:22 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >If you are anchoring in clam weather, then you
> can
> > get
> > >away with the below or even a gallon jug filled
> > with
> > >concrete:-)
> > >
> > >However, here is something you all are not
> > factoring
> > >in. Your motor quits, wind is 15 to 20 & your
> > drifing
> > >to shore. You decide to depold your
> > Danforth/anchor
> > >to keep you off the shore. Guess what, the
> > danforth
> > >just sail on top of the water & your boat in now
> on
> > >the rocks!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > >You put chain on your anchor (if you want to
> Ignore
> > >all the other very good reasons) to get it to
> sink.
> > >Unless you are just a fair weather sailor!!!!
> > >Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Mary Lou,
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure I've heard the same things about
> > anchoring
> > > > that you've heard,
> > > > but when I started to actually check them out,
> a
> > lot
> > > > of those things
> > > > didn't make sense, and many of them seem
> > > > contradictory.
> > > >
> > > > Let's start with John's explanation, which is
> > well
> > > > written, and pretty
> > > > typical. In order to make his examples work,
> > he's
> > > > got to anchor in 30
> > > > feet of water. I have never anchored in 30
> feet
> > of
> > > > water, nor have I
> > > > ever paid out 200 feet of rode. (When I first
> > read
> > > > explanations of
> > > > anchoring like this I bought 300 feet of line
> on
> > a
> > > > single anchor rode,
> > > > but most of it has never been in the water.)
> > > >
> > > > In practice, I would be happy if I could
> anchor
> > in
> > > > 10 feet of water, pay
> > > > out 70 feet of rode, + my 22 ft. boat = 92
> feet
> > x 2
> > > > = 184 feet...I would
> > > > need a circle greater than 184 feet in
> diameter
> > with
> > > > no other boats
> > > > encroaching to be sure we would not foul each
> > > > other's rode or bump in
> > > > the night. (John's circle would be larger
> than
> > a
> > > > football field.) I've
> > > > never been in a busy anchorage where boats
> > stayed a
> > > > football field away
> > > > from each other.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, in most busy anchorages you are lucky
> > to
> > > > get a 100 foot
> > > > circle. 22 feet of boat, 28 feet of rode, 7
> > foot
> > > > depth, 4:1 scope. If
> > > > this is the way you are anchoring, then your
> 16
> > feet
> > > > of chain represents
> > > > more than 50% of the rode--however it weighs
> > only
> > > > around 10 lbs, and
> > > > would not be sufficient to create a catenary
> > shape
> > > > between your bow and
> > > > the anchor. If you actually anchor in 30 feet
> > of
> > > > water, your 16 feet of
> > > > chain would still weigh only 10 pounds, and
> > could
> > > > still not create a
> > > > catenary between your bow and anchor.
> > > >
> > > > When I look around my harbor at hundreds of
> > anchored
> > > > boats what I see
> > > > are very short scopes, no catenary shape, a
> > straight
> > > > line between the
> > > > anchor and the bow, no chain on the bottom,
> > constant
> > > > pressure on the
> > > > flukes of the anchors, and very little
> drifting.
> > > >
> > > > When I looked in the West catalog to find
> > drawings
> > > > of anchor lines with
> > > > chain on the bottom I was surprised to see
> that
> > they
> > > > are no longer
> > > > drawing anchor lines this way (see p. 725) --
> > it's a
> > > > straight line from
> > > > the anchor to the bow.
> > > >
> > > > I think everyone should anchor in a manner
> that
> > > > allows them to sleep in
> > > > the night, but I find it interesting that so
> > much of
> > > > what we read turns
> > > > out to be wrong in practice. As Wally has
> > > > mentioned, the biggest
> > > > benefit of the all line rode is that it comes
> up
> > > > clean. It is much
> > > > easier to handle and store, and it is light
> > enough
> > > > so that even a child
> > > > can haul it on board.
> > > >
> > > > Anchoring on coral is a frowned upon practice
> in
> > > > most places that still
> > > > have coral. Danforth anchors are the wrong
> > type to
> > > > use on rocky
> > > > bottoms. Again, like Wally, I have never seen
> > > > abrasion on my all line
> > > > rode. I don't think line abrasion is a valid
> > reason
> > > > to use chain. I
> > > > don't think either the chain or the line
> spends
> > much
> > > > time on the bottom.
> > > >
> > > > As far as I can see, the real reason people
> use
> > > > chain is that it is
> > > > easier for the windlasses to pull up chain.
> > Since a
> > > > lot of these boats
> > > > have really heavy anchors--too heavy even for
> > > > Roger--they need something
> > > > to pull them up, and they need chain so the
> > windlass
> > > > can do its job.
> > > >
> > > > I was surprised to find on our boats that all
> > line
> > > > rodes worked just as
> > > > well as chain/rode combinations.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Effros
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The catenary concept
> > > >
> > > > Mary Lou Troy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > > I've always heard that the primary function
> of
> > > > chain is to keep the
> > > > > pull on the anchor low, to increase the
> > catenary
> > > > and to reduce shock
> > > > > loads in all but the most extreme conditions
> > (when
> > > > a snubber is needed
> > > > > as well). There's a better explanation of
> this
> > > > than mine at
> > > > >
> > http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/anchor.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Our Danforth holds better with 16 ft. of
> chain
> > > > than it did with 8 ft.
> > > > > of chain because the extra weight of the
> chain
> > is
> > > > keeping the
> > > > > direction of pull on the shank low. In many
> > places
> > > > we anchor I now use
> > > > > less scope because we are much closer to the
> > > > needing the scope
> > > > > required for an all chain rode. (thinking
> 3:1
> > all
> > > > chain, calm
> > > > > conditions; 5:1 chain/nylon rode, calm
> > conditions;
> > > > 7:1 chain/nylon
> > > > > rode, more difficult conditions)
> > > > >
> > > > > Mary Lou
> > > > > 1991 R22 Fretless
> > > > > Ft. Washington, PA / Swan Creek, MD
> > > > >
> > > > > At 09:30 AM 3/19/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Bill,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As I understand the function of chain, its
> > > > primary purpose is to
> > > > >> prevent line abrasion on the bottom. If
> you
> > > > don't have a rough
> > > > >> bottom you really don't need chain. As
> soon
> > as
> > > > you set a Danford
> > > > >> type anchor you have pulled the chain off
> the
> > > > bottom, and the chain
> > > > >> and line should stay off the bottom,
> putting
> > all
> > > > the pressure on the
> > > > >> anchor flukes and causing them to dig
> > strongly
> > > > into the bottom.
> > > > >> If you have sufficient scope, the pressure
> on
> > the
> > > > anchor is
> > > > >> horizontal within the design
> specifications,
> > and
> > > > it should reset
> > > > >> itself as needed if the boat slowly swings
> > around
> > > > it due to wind or
> > > > >> current shifts. When you are ready to
> > retrieve
> > > > it, you move the boat
> > > > >> over the anchor and pull vertically, and
> the
> > > > anchor releases. (You
> > > > >> can pull the boat over the anchor by
> hauling
> > in
> > > > the line, but it's
> > > > >> much easier to motor over, and pull just
> line
> > > > straight up until you
> > > > >> get to the anchor, which in our case should
> > weigh
> > > > less than 10 lbs.)
> > > > >> The beauty of the Fortress anchors is that
> > they
> > > > are both lighter and
> > > > >> stronger than conventional anchors.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Bill Effros
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> William E. Wickman wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> You are right Wally. It is all mud and
> clay
> > > > with the occasional
> > > > >>> rock cropping here. I think I may cut my
> 20
> > ft
> > > > chain in half and
> > > > >>> carry the resulting pair of 10 ft lengths
> > for
> > > > use when I go to the
> > > > >>> coast.
> > > > >>> Bill W.
> > > > >>> --------------------------
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces
> > > > >>> Sent: 03/19/2005 06:57 AM
> > > > >>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain
> > > > Question
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Bill,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I agree with Bill here. I started out
> using
> > > > about 8 feet of chain.
> > > > >>> For my conditions I quickly found out that
> I
> > > > don't need any chain. I
> > > > >>> anchors in fairly shallow coves with red
> > clay
> > > > bottom. It has never
> > > > >>> been a problem. The chain seemed like
> extra
> > > > hassle and weight.
> > > > >>> Everyone told me this was going to be a
> big
> > > > problem. It has worked
> > > > >>> just fine and I spend a bunch of nights
> > > > anchored. I would guess your
> > > > >>> conditions up river are much the same. If
> > you
> > > > plan on towing your
> > > > >>> boat to the coast I would suggest chain
> but
> > > > don't see any need on
> > > > >>> the river.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Wally.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > > > >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain
> > > > Question
> > > > >>>> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:04:01 -0500
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Bill,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I've got the Fortress FX11, and I think
> > it's a
> > > > terrific anchor. I
> > > > >>>> also have the smallest Guardian anchor,
> > which I
> > > > store in a pouch,
> > > > >>>> unassembled, and I've been very happy
> with
> > that
> > > > one also.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I think those people know a lot about
> > anchors,
> > > > and I would be
> > > > >>>> inclined to follow their recommendations.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I have several lines with differing
> amounts
> > of
> > > > chain on each, and
> > > > >>>> several with no chain at all. I find I
> > always
> > > > go for the no chain
> > > > >>>> at all, because I've never had any
> trouble
> > with
> > > > it, and it's so
> > > > >>>> much easier to handle.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> The trick to anchoring (as with so many
> > other
> > > > things) is practice.
> > > > >>>> Try setting your anchor when it's not
> > critical.
> > > > See if you have
> > > > >>>> enough navigation skill to be able to
> > determine
> > > > if your anchor is
> > > > >>>> dragging.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> When it's really blowing you shouldn't be
> > on
> > > > our boats in the first
> > > > >>>> place. Anchoring and praying is not the
> > > > answer. If you are
> > > > >>>> trapped in a situation like this, and
> can't
> > get
> > > > to shore, head for
> > > > >>>> open water and heave-to. Practice
> > heaving-to,
> > > > too. Work with the
> > > > >>>> elements, not against them.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> The guy who developed those anchors
> > recommends
> > > > setting 2 at 180
> > > > >>>> degrees apart and tying both off on the
> > bow.
> > > > Then neither one will
> > > > >>>> have to reset if current or wind shifts.
> > > > Differing lengths of
> > > > >>>> chain will not matter, longer scope can
> be
> > set
> > > > because the boat
> > > > >>>> will rotate in a much smaller arc
> relative
> > to
> > > > other boats.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Avoid anchor overkill. That goes for the
> > > > chain, too.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Bill Effros
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> William E. Wickman wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> I just got my nifty Fortress FX7 anchor.
>
> > The
> > > > instructions that
> > > > >>>>> came with
> > > > >>>>> the anchor said to use a short length of
> > > > anchor chain (6 feet of
> > > > >>>>> chain if
> > > > >>>>> anchoring in 25' of water or less, and
> add
> > > > another 6 feet of chain
> > > > >>>>> for each
> > > > >>>>> additional 25' of depth). Their claim
> is
> > that
> > > > chain anchor rodes
> > > > >>>>> lack the
> > > > >>>>> shock absorbancy of nylon rope when the
> > wind
> > > > increases. This
> > > > >>>>> advice runs
> > > > >>>>> contrary to what I have been reading in
> > the
> > > > Rhodes FAQ that most
> > > > >>>>> of you are
> > > > >>>>> using around 20 feet of chain. So, does
> > the
> > > > Fortress require less
> > > > >>>>> chain
> > > > >>>>> because it is so light? What gives? I
> > > > presume that these anchor
> > > > >>>>> guys know
> > > > >>>>> what they are talking about, but...
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Also, since I have 20 feet of chain that
> I
> > use
> > > > with my gbi anchor,
> > > > >>>>> what are
> > > > >>>>> the dynamics of using shorter chain on a
> > > > second anchor when
> > > > >>>>> setting two
> > > > >>>>> anchors? Does it really matter?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> B. Wickman
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
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> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
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> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > >
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