[Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain Question

[Bob Weber]

Steve, What was wrong with your SAILs in that senerio.  Sorry, I couldn't 
resist, this is a sailing List.  BW

>From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain Question
>Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:54:22 -0800 (PST)
>
>If you are anchoring in clam weather, then you can get
>away with the below or even a gallon jug filled with
>concrete:-)
>
>However, here is something you all are not factoring
>in.  Your motor quits, wind is 15 to 20 & your drifing
>to shore.  You decide to depold your Danforth/anchor
>to keep you off the shore.  Guess what, the danforth
>just sail on top of the water & your boat in now on
>the rocks!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>You put chain on your anchor (if you want to Ignore
>all the other very good reasons) to get it to sink.
>Unless you are just a fair weather sailor!!!!
>Steve
>
>
>--- Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>
> > Mary Lou,
> >
> > I'm sure I've heard the same things about anchoring
> > that you've heard,
> > but when I started to actually check them out, a lot
> > of those things
> > didn't make sense, and many of them seem
> > contradictory.
> >
> > Let's start with John's explanation, which is well
> > written, and pretty
> > typical.  In order to make his examples work, he's
> > got to anchor in 30
> > feet of water.  I have never anchored in 30 feet of
> > water, nor have I
> > ever paid out 200 feet of rode.  (When I first read
> > explanations of
> > anchoring like this I bought 300 feet of line on a
> > single anchor rode,
> > but most of it has never been in the water.)
> >
> > In practice, I would be happy if I could anchor in
> > 10 feet of water, pay
> > out 70 feet of rode, + my 22 ft. boat = 92 feet x 2
> > = 184 feet...I would
> > need a circle greater than 184 feet in diameter with
> > no other boats
> > encroaching to be sure we would not foul each
> > other's rode or bump in
> > the night.  (John's circle would be larger than a
> > football field.)  I've
> > never been in a busy anchorage where boats stayed a
> > football field away
> > from each other.
> >
> > In fact, in most busy anchorages you are lucky to
> > get a 100 foot
> > circle.  22 feet of boat, 28 feet of rode, 7 foot
> > depth, 4:1 scope.  If
> > this is the way you are anchoring, then your 16 feet
> > of chain represents
> > more than 50% of the rode--however it weighs only
> > around 10 lbs, and
> > would not be sufficient to create a catenary shape
> > between your bow and
> > the anchor.  If you actually anchor in 30 feet of
> > water, your 16 feet of
> > chain would still weigh only 10 pounds, and could
> > still not create a
> > catenary between your bow and anchor.
> >
> > When I look around my harbor at hundreds of anchored
> > boats what I see
> > are very short scopes, no catenary shape, a straight
> > line between the
> > anchor and the bow, no chain on the bottom, constant
> > pressure on the
> > flukes of the anchors, and very little drifting.
> >
> > When I looked in the West catalog to find drawings
> > of anchor lines with
> > chain on the bottom I was surprised to see that they
> > are no longer
> > drawing anchor lines this way (see p. 725) -- it's a
> > straight line from
> > the anchor to the bow.
> >
> > I think everyone should anchor in a manner that
> > allows them to sleep in
> > the night, but I find it interesting that so much of
> > what we read turns
> > out to be wrong in practice.  As Wally has
> > mentioned, the biggest
> > benefit of the all line rode is that it comes up
> > clean.  It is much
> > easier to handle and store, and it is light enough
> > so that even a child
> > can haul it on board.
> >
> > Anchoring on coral is a frowned upon practice in
> > most places that still
> > have coral.   Danforth anchors are the wrong type to
> > use on rocky
> > bottoms.  Again, like Wally, I have never seen
> > abrasion on my all line
> > rode.  I don't think line abrasion is a valid reason
> > to use chain.  I
> > don't think either the chain or the line spends much
> > time on the bottom.
> >
> > As far as I can see, the real reason people use
> > chain is that it is
> > easier for the windlasses to pull up chain.  Since a
> > lot of these boats
> > have really heavy anchors--too heavy even for
> > Roger--they need something
> > to pull them up, and they need chain so the windlass
> > can do its job.
> >
> > I was surprised to find on our boats that all line
> > rodes worked just as
> > well as chain/rode combinations.
> >
> > Bill Effros
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The catenary concept
> >
> > Mary Lou Troy wrote:
> >
> > > Bill,
> > > I've always heard that the primary function of
> > chain is to keep the
> > > pull on the anchor low, to increase the catenary
> > and to reduce shock
> > > loads in all but the most extreme conditions (when
> > a snubber is needed
> > > as well). There's a better explanation of this
> > than mine at
> > > http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/anchor.htm
> > >
> > > Our Danforth holds better with 16 ft. of chain
> > than it did with 8 ft.
> > > of chain because the extra weight of the chain is
> > keeping the
> > > direction of pull on the shank low. In many places
> > we anchor I now use
> > > less scope because we are much closer to the
> > needing the scope
> > > required for an all chain rode. (thinking 3:1 all
> > chain, calm
> > > conditions; 5:1 chain/nylon rode, calm conditions;
> > 7:1 chain/nylon
> > > rode, more difficult conditions)
> > >
> > > Mary Lou
> > > 1991 R22 Fretless
> > > Ft. Washington, PA / Swan Creek, MD
> > >
> > > At 09:30 AM 3/19/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> > >
> > >> Bill,
> > >>
> > >> As I understand the function of chain, its
> > primary purpose is to
> > >> prevent line abrasion on the bottom.  If you
> > don't have a rough
> > >> bottom you really don't need chain.  As soon as
> > you set a Danford
> > >> type anchor you have pulled the chain off the
> > bottom, and the chain
> > >> and line should stay off the bottom, putting all
> > the pressure on the
> > >> anchor flukes and causing them to dig strongly
> > into the bottom.
> > >> If you have sufficient scope, the pressure on the
> > anchor is
> > >> horizontal within the design specifications, and
> > it should reset
> > >> itself as needed if the boat slowly swings around
> > it due to wind or
> > >> current shifts.  When you are ready to retrieve
> > it, you move the boat
> > >> over the anchor and pull vertically, and the
> > anchor releases.  (You
> > >> can pull the boat over the anchor by hauling in
> > the line, but it's
> > >> much easier to motor over, and pull just line
> > straight up until you
> > >> get to the anchor, which in our case should weigh
> > less than 10 lbs.)
> > >> The beauty of the Fortress anchors is that they
> > are both lighter and
> > >> stronger than conventional anchors.
> > >>
> > >> Bill Effros
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> William E. Wickman wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> You are right Wally.  It is all mud and clay
> > with the occasional
> > >>> rock cropping here.  I think I may cut my 20 ft
> > chain in half and
> > >>> carry the resulting pair of 10 ft lengths for
> > use when I go to the
> > >>> coast.
> > >>> Bill W.
> > >>> --------------------------
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces
> > >>> Sent: 03/19/2005 06:57 AM
> > >>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain
> > Question
> > >>>
> > >>> Bill,
> > >>>
> > >>> I agree with Bill here. I started out using
> > about 8 feet of chain.
> > >>> For my conditions I quickly found out that I
> > don't need any chain. I
> > >>> anchors in fairly shallow coves with red clay
> > bottom. It has never
> > >>> been a problem. The chain seemed like extra
> > hassle and weight.
> > >>> Everyone told me this was going to be a big
> > problem. It has worked
> > >>> just fine and I spend a bunch of nights
> > anchored. I would guess your
> > >>> conditions up river are much the same. If you
> > plan on towing your
> > >>> boat to the coast I would suggest chain but
> > don't see any need on
> > >>> the river.
> > >>>
> > >>> Wally.
> > >>>
> > >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain
> > Question
> > >>>> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:04:01 -0500
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've got the Fortress FX11, and I think it's a
> > terrific anchor.  I
> > >>>> also have the smallest Guardian anchor, which I
> > store in a pouch,
> > >>>> unassembled, and I've been very happy with that
> > one also.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think those people know a lot about anchors,
> > and I would be
> > >>>> inclined to follow their recommendations.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I have several lines with differing amounts of
> > chain on each, and
> > >>>> several with no chain at all.  I find I always
> > go for the no chain
> > >>>> at all, because I've never had any trouble with
> > it, and it's so
> > >>>> much easier to handle.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The trick to anchoring (as with so many other
> > things) is practice.
> > >>>> Try setting your anchor when it's not critical.
> >  See if you have
> > >>>> enough navigation skill to be able to determine
> > if your anchor is
> > >>>> dragging.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When it's really blowing you shouldn't be on
> > our boats in the first
> > >>>> place.  Anchoring and praying is not the
> > answer.  If you are
> > >>>> trapped in a situation like this, and can't get
> > to shore, head for
> > >>>> open water and heave-to.  Practice heaving-to,
> > too.  Work with the
> > >>>> elements, not against them.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The guy who developed those anchors recommends
> > setting 2 at 180
> > >>>> degrees apart and tying both off on the bow.
> > Then neither one will
> > >>>> have to reset if current or wind shifts.
> > Differing lengths of
> > >>>> chain will  not matter, longer scope can be set
> > because the boat
> > >>>> will rotate in a much smaller arc relative to
> > other boats.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Avoid anchor overkill.  That goes for the
> > chain, too.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> William E. Wickman wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I just got my nifty Fortress FX7 anchor.  The
> > instructions that
> > >>>>> came with
> > >>>>> the anchor said to use a short length of
> > anchor chain (6 feet of
> > >>>>> chain if
> > >>>>> anchoring in 25' of water or less, and add
> > another 6 feet of chain
> > >>>>> for each
> > >>>>> additional 25' of depth).  Their claim is that
> > chain anchor rodes
> > >>>>> lack the
> > >>>>> shock absorbancy of nylon rope when the wind
> > increases.  This
> > >>>>> advice runs
> > >>>>> contrary to what I have been reading in the
> > Rhodes FAQ that most
> > >>>>> of you are
> > >>>>> using around 20 feet of chain.  So, does the
> > Fortress require less
> > >>>>> chain
> > >>>>> because it is so light?  What gives?  I
> > presume that these anchor
> > >>>>> guys know
> > >>>>> what they are talking about, but...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Also, since I have 20 feet of chain that I use
> > with my gbi anchor,
> > >>>>> what are
> > >>>>> the dynamics of using shorter chain on a
> > second anchor when
> > >>>>> setting two
> > >>>>> anchors?  Does it really matter?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> B. Wickman
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > __________________________________________________
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> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > __________________________________________________
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> > __________________________________________________
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> > >>
> > >>
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> > >
> > >
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>
>
>
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