[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)

[Cheryl O'Grady]

you are quoting a man who claims McCarthy as a hero???????
----- Original Message -----
From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 06:01:08 -0800 (PST)

> 
> Wally, Rummy, et al,
> 
> What the hell, our Gulfport attorney won't be in her
> office for another hour so why not entertain myself
> with this?
> 
> Rummy, you accuse me of chest thumping and then go on
> to beat your own.  I can hear it all the way to
> Tennessee.  Read the rest of your post and get back to
> me on that issue.  Re-read my disclaimer on Buchanan.
> He is not one of my favorites but that doesn't mean he
> isn't dead on from time to time.  I quote the
> Clinton's when they are correct on issues, my personal
> distaste for Billy which dates back to long before he
> was President notwithstanting.  Argue the message, not
> the messenger.  I couldn't agree more on the fiscal
> responsibility issues and that is why Bush is in such
> trouble with some elements of GOP - like me.
> 
> Wally, I thought I made it clear that I was pressed
> for time and didn't want to engage in a point for
> point debate with Slim, but this shouldn't take long.
> 
> "First the tyranny of Saddam. This is no reason to
> invade a sovereign state.The US has ignored or even
> supported so many tyrants I can't count 'em.  But just
> to name a few, Pinochet, The Shaw of Iran, Kim Jong
> Ill, even Saddam himself was armed by the US.  So we
> say, "He's abusing his own citizens so we better go in
> there and take him down."  Not only is this bad
> foreign
> policy, but it's bullshit policy because we don't
> really care.  We didn't care about the Shaw's death
> squads or Pinochet's.  Why now Saddam?  The whole
> tyrant argument holds no water at all."
> 
> That's a pretty cynical view Slim.  We supported
> Stalin when he was of use to us, and paid a heavy
> price.  Past mistakes do not doom us to future
> inaction. Are you implying that because we were
> previously on the wrong side of history we are damned
> to tolerate every despot?
> 
> "The same goes for the argument about spreading
> freedom and democracy. What a load of crap!  Don't
> tell me that our government actually give a rat's ass
> about an Iraqi democracy.  No, I'm not saying
> democracy itself is crap, but why would we care about
> Iraq when we don't care about the dozens of
> other non-democratic countries?  Why Iraq?  Why not
> invade Cuba?  Isn't Fidel a tyrant?  Why not North
> Korea?  We know Kim Jong Ill is a tyrant.  This is bad
> foreign policy."
> 
> It is no secret that we have ignored a lot of tyrants
> in the Mid-East because THEY HAVE OIL!  Our "friends"
> the Saudi's are perhaps the worst of the lot.  The
> leaders of these nations have focussed the attention
> of their citizens on hating the US for their miserable
> conditions instead of their own leaders.  The
> democratic process in Iraq has all ready spilled over
> into other countries in the region.  Do you have a
> better idea?  A billion Muslims constitute a large
> population to ignore.  Are they a threat under their
> current leaders?  Uh, yes.  Can we force them to
> change?  No, that has to come from within, and it is.
> Kim Jong III?  We have China to help handle that.
> Fidel?  A lot of Cubans in Miami would love to invade
> Cuba.  Bay of Pigs ring a bell?  He was a threat then,
> not now unless you consider cornering the market on
> 57' Chevys a threat.
> 
> "I agreed with Mike Abdullah when he stated we had no
> business in Kuwait in the first place.  We shouldn't
> be fighting other countries' border battles. As Mike
> said, What was Saddam going to do with his oil?  Drink
> it?  He was selling it on the open market and black
> market just like every other Arab state.  That was bad
> foreign policy."
> 
> Gee Slim, that sounds familiar.  Poland, Austria,
> Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc., "peace in our time",
> yada, yada, yada.  Remember what Santayana wrote about
> repeating history.  What did he do with his oil?  Buy
> weapons from the French, Germans and Russians?
> 
> 
> 
> "But whatever, then we had Saddam completely contained
> with the
> no-fly-zone and the sanctions.  He was no threat to
> us.  Perhaps he was a "threat" to Israel, but why go
> to war with someone you've already beaten?  This is
> bad foreign policy."
> 
> Actually Slim, Saddam used to shoot at us in the no
> fly zone.  I'd be happy to introduce you to some of my
> co-workers who can vouch for that.  Perhaps he was a
> threat to Israel?  Does paying $25,000 to families
> that provide suicide bombers in Israel constitute a
> threat?
> 
> "Did we need to go in and hunt for WMD?  Do we need to
> go into ANY country hunting for WMD?  Again, why not
> North Korea?  This is bad foreign policy."
> 
> Read above about China and North Korea.
> 
> "Did we need to go into Iraq to control the oil?  No.
> What have oil prices done since then?  The exact same
> thing they would have done had we not gone to war.
> They've gone up.  Happy now?"
> 
> You are correct, oil prices are a function of supply
> and demand and geological limits.  We did not go to
> war directly over oil but if it wasn't for oil, Sadamm
> would be just another piss-ant dictator that we could
> ignore, like most of Africa.
> 
> 
> 
> "Did we need to go into Iraq as a response to 9/11?
> This is asinine foreign policy.  Everyone knows Saddam
> had nothing to do with that."
> 
> It was the official policy of the Clinton
> administration to take out Saddam.  Aside from one or
> two missles up some donkey's ass around the
> impeachment hearings, it was all talk and no action.
> 9/11 raised the awareness level of the threat and
> provided a convenient selling point.
> 
> "Thousands are now dead or wounded so Halliburton
> could make a windfall. Folks, the definition of
> Fascism is when government is in bed with
> business.THIS IS VERY BAD FOREIGN POLICY!"
> 
> Sorry Slim, that statement is not worthy of a
> response.
> 
> "Our government is despised by nearly every soul
> outside our borders.  And over half those inside!  Do
> polls dictate our policy?  I think not. Although I
> noticed the Indonesians' attitude towards us perked up
> a bit after all the tsunami relief money that poured
> in.  But even our low-key, happy neighbors to the
> north hate Bush.  The joke going around Canada is
> that all you have to do to get elected is to be
> anti-Bush.  I won't go into how mein furor is screwing
> Canada on the softwoods issue.  I'll leave that for
> another thread.  But we buy lots and lots of oil from
> Canada so we ought to be nice to her.  Guess who else
> wants Canadian oil?  China.  And lots and lots of it.
> Maybe we should invade Canada.  Yeah, that's the
> ticket,
> eh!"
> 
> News flash!  We've been despised outside our borders
> long before W came into power.  Do polls dictate our
> policy?  NO!  Does being liked by everyone dictate our
> policy?  NO.  Tojo and Adolf didn't like us either.
> 
> "It's beyond me how anyone can favor this war for any
> reason."
> 
> A lot of people feel as you do Slim, including a huge
> part of the moderate element of the GOP.  So what do
> you suggest, cut and run?  We tried that.  I believe
> John Kerry said a few thousand would be killed when we
> pulled out of Vietnam.  He was off by a few million.
> To allow Iraq to fall into civil war would doom any
> chance of the Middle East ever progressing beyond
> dictatorships and tyrants. Why do we care?  Israel for
> one, then there's the OIL!
> 
> Any one pissed off yet?  THUMP, THUMP, THUMP!
> 
> Gotta take care of business, see ya!
> 
> Brad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Brad,
> >
> > Your post doesn't really answer any of Slim's
> > points. As you know I have been against this was from day one. It doesn't
> > matter what side led us into the mess.
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >
> > >From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's
> > nest.... (political)
> > >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 03:15:59 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >Slim,
> > >
> > >Forgive me, I lied.  It is only 5am and I do have
> > time
> > >for one more post.  This is something I ran across
> > >reading the morning papers.  Buchanan is not a
> > >favorite of mine but sometimes he "gets it". Enjoy.
> > >
> > >Brad
> > >
> > >--------------
> > >November 16, 2005
> > >The Politics of War and the Patriot Card
> > >By Pat Buchanan
> > >
> > >Since the indictment of Scooter Libby, President
> > Bush
> > >and Vice President Cheney have been under
> > relentless
> > >assault.
> > >
> > >The gravamen of the charge is that Bush, Cheney and
> > >the War Party cherry-picked and hyped the
> > intelligence
> > >on Iraqi WMDs and Saddam's ties to al-Qaida and
> > 9-11,
> > >and spoke of mushroom clouds over U.S. cities based
> > on
> > >flimsy evidence and forged documents that Saddam
> > had
> > >reconstituted his nuclear weapons program.
> > >
> > >Echoed by anti-Bush media that can smell blood in
> > the
> > >water, the Democratic Party is charging that Bush
> > >misled, deceived or lied us into war. With polls
> > >showing 57 percent of the nation no longer believes
> > >Bush to be honest and truthful, the unanswered
> > charges
> > >have had a devastating impact.
> > >
> > >But Bush has a last card to play, and on Veterans
> > Day,
> > >he played it, the ace of trumps in any president's
> > >hand: the patriot card.
> > >
> > >Speaking in Pennsylvania to the troops, Bush said
> > that
> > >pro-war Democrats like John Kerry saw the same
> > >intelligence he did and voted to take Saddam down,
> > and
> > >that Democrats now accusing him of faking
> > intelligence
> > >are undercutting our fighting troops in Iraq.
> > >
> > >Translation: Democrats are giving aid and comfort
> > to
> > >the enemy in time of war. We are one step away form
> > >the T-word.
> > >
> > >With his poll ratings at rock bottom and little to
> > >lose, Bush has just escalated the war politics.
> > >Democrats who have had it all their way since Cindy
> > >Sheehan set up Camp Casey would do well to wonder
> > >whether they have not ridden out a little too far
> > into
> > >Indian country and are heading for the Little Big
> > Horn
> > >where their daddies disappeared long ago.
> > >
> > >In the late 1940s, the Party of Truman and FDR was
> > >shredded by Nixon, Bill Jenner and Joe McCarthy for
> > >having sold out Eastern Europe at Yalta, lost
> > China,
> > >and coddled communists and Stalinist spies like
> > Alger
> > >Hiss and Harry Dexter White. And there was a reason
> > >the attacks stuck. They had the ancillary benefit
> > of
> > >being true.
> > >
> > >The media may have rewritten history to make the
> > >Edward R. Murrow Left look like the heroes of the
> > era,
> > >but the Democratic Party never recovered from the
> > >charge its leaders had groveled to Stalin. JFK knew
> > >it, and ran and won the presidency as an
> > >anti-communist hawk.
> > >
> > >A generation later, Nixon and Agnew charged the
> > >Democratic Party with having marched us into
> > Vietnam
> > >and then, when the going got tough, of having
> > turned
> > >tail, cut and run, and gone over the hill to march
> > >with the children against the war into which they
> > had
> > >themselves led the United States. Those charges
> > stuck
> > >for the same reason: They were true.
> > >
> > >Between 1961 and 1969, when America was plunged
> > into
> > >Vietnam, Washington was Democratic, from the White
> > >House to the Capitol to the pro-war Washington
> > Post.
> > >When Nixon arrived in 1969, Democrats started
> > calling
> > >it "Nixon's War," but the country knew it was a
> > >Democratic war. And when the liberals turned on
> > Nixon,
> > >America turned on them and gave him a 49-state
> > >landslide. Vietnam was the wheel on which
> > liberalism
> > >was broken and the FDR New Deal coalition shattered
> > >forever.
> > >
> > >Now, Democrats have maneuvered themselves onto the
> > >same risky terrain once again.
> > >
> > >Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice took us to war, but
> > >Democrats were the happiest of camp followers. And
> > >everybody knows it. Daschle, Kerry, Edwards, Biden,
> > >Clinton and Schumer all declared Saddam a threat to
> > >the Middle East and the United States. All voted in
> > >October 2002 to give Bush his blank check to take
> > us
> > >to war. Now that the war is dragging on toward its
> > >fourth year, now that footage of young men trying
> > to
> > >walk with artificial limbs is on nightly TV, now
> > that
> > >the morning papers report three or four more
> > American
> > >dead every day, they are trying to say they were
> > >misled, they were deceived, they were lied to. It's
> > >not our fault!
> > >
> > >But the truth is they failed America. They handed
> > to
> > >Bush the war power the Constitution had given to
> > them.
> > >Having enlisted enthusiastically in a "cakewalk"
> > war,
> > >national Democrats and Big Media are deserting and
> > >applying for conscientious objector status in what
> > now
> > >appears an endless war.
> > >
> > >Sorry, it is too late for that.
> > >
> > >What Bush was saying in Pennsylvania is this: You
> > may
> > >accuse me of falsifying intelligence, but you are
> > >falsifying history. And you will not get away with
> > it.
> > >I am going to fight it out on this line, even if it
> > >costs me my presidency. But if I am going down, you
> > >are going down with me.
> > >
> > >If Iraq is lost to chaos and civil war, and this is
> > a
> > >historic defeat and strategic disaster for the
> > United
> > >States, Bush is saying, I will charge you with
> > cutting
> > >and running, abandoning our troops under fire and
> > >losing the Iraq war. No wonder Bill and Hillary
> > seem
> > >wary of throwing in with the Cindy Sheehan crowd.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Slim <salm at mn.rr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Never mind the spin or the rhetoric, forget
> > about
> > > > so-called intelligence,
> > > > never mind your own left or right stripes.  What
> >
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 		
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list





"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."  Edmund Burke, Irish philosopher