[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)

[Ronald Lipton]

For a detailed discussion of electronic voting machine issues taka
a look at:
http://vmsstreamer1.fnal.gov/VMS_Site_03/Lectures/Colloquium/040818Wallach/index.htm

Ron
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cheryl O'Grady" <cheryl.ogrady at mail.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)


Haven't you seen all the evidence about the touch-screen voting machines 
that don't put out a paper ballot?  Therefore there is no chance of a 
recount differing from the original vote.  If there is in fact paper trails, 
then it would be auditable.  But without a paper printout that is verified 
by the voter, a recount is meaningless.

Regarding my "top races" comment -  I know better than to use never and 
always and  only - I just always forget when my brain is in bumblebee mode. 
I mistook a comment I had read in the statistical analysis - it was a 
comment made primarily in reference to problems in Washington State, not to 
be expanded to the country at large.  mea culpa. I would, however, be 
interested in your citations.  In which races were the exit polls more than 
5% off from the final?  Again, please remember that the company that puts 
out the exit polls converts them to agree with the final votes, so which 
exit polls were they using?

I should have used the word "primarily": "If exit polls were so inadequate, 
why did the exit polls primarily differ in the top races?"

> Typically, there are votes that "disappear into black boxes", that
> is why we have the option for recounts.

This was true as long as we used some kind of punch card, or optical 
scanner, which provided a paper trail.  Sorry, but I don't trust my 
democracy, my vote, to a computer!  Particularly when any joe can modem in 
and change the software without leaving a trail.

The following is a quote from the GAO report:
"Studies found )1) some electronic voting systems did not encrypt cast 
ballots or system audit logs, and it was possible to alter both without 
being detected; (2) it was possible to alter the files that define how a 
ballot looks and works so that the votes for one candidate could be recorded 
for a different candidate; and (3) vendors installed uncertified versions of 
voting system software at the local level.."

Is there anything wrong with having a voting machine spit out a receipt - 
like you get at the grocery store or the library - that the voter can look 
at and say, yep that's who I voted for, then the receipts are kept in case a 
recount is necessary.  Then, we know that the button we pressed is the vote 
that was cast.

Cheryl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:45:40 -0600

>
> What proof, where?
>
> Your assertion that exit polls only differ in "top races" is
> incorrect. If you want, and will offer a public apology for your
> inaccurate assertion, I'll find the instances I saw in local
> elections here in Texas. Of course, if you're not willing to offer
> such an apology, then any effort on my part would be fruitless.
> Keep in mind that absolutes like "always", "all", and, as in your
> case, "only", take but one single exception to be proven wrong.
>
> Typically, there are votes that "disappear into black boxes", that
> is why we have the option for recounts. That is also why, almost
> always, recounts come up with a different number than the original
> count. That's the way it's always been, nothing new. Where were
> your complaints about this in the past?
>
>
> Herb Parsons
>
> S/V O'Jure
>    1976 O'Day 25
>    Lake Grapevine, N TX
>
> S/V Reve de Papa
>    1971 Coronado 35
>    Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>
> >>> cheryl.ogrady at mail.com 11/15/2005 12:31:17 PM >>>
> Herb,
>
> The constitution says our votes are to be counted, one person, one
> vote.  There is evidence that votes were not counted at that rate,
> that the software in the machines didn't work and votes were lost,
> even switched to the other party.  No, we don't run our election on
> exit polls, but we do have to trust that the people counting the
> votes are honest.  If we feel that they are not honest, and that
> elections are stolen or are otherwise illegitimate, then we don't
> have a democracy.
>
> If exit polls were so inadequate, why did the exit polls only
> differ in the top races?
>
> As long as people like you say that there is nothing wrong with
> having our votes disappear into black boxes, with only a select few
> having access to the software that counts them, and there is no
> independently auditable, recountable paper ballots, we will
> continue with the status quo: elections that can't be trusted.
>
> >
> > So, when the exit polls here turn out differently than you want,
> > you blame it on cheating at the ballot box (which has NOT been
> > proven) instead of problems with the exit polls.
> >
> > Actually, there were several errors shown on the exit polls done
> > in Ohio, including the sampling done and the timing of the polls.
> > But then, of course, the truth doesn't fit well with the losers,
> > so they spin it a different way.
> >
> Of course not. But, if the problems with the exit polls were merely
> statistical, the errors would fall on both sides and they would
> cancel themselves out.  But, in fact, in every case, the exit polls
> said Kerry won and the final results said Bush won.
>
> Even the GAO report said there were egregious problems with the 2004 
> election.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)
> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:41:33 -0600
>
> >
> > Where in the constitution, do you find anything that says our
> > elections are to be run by exit polls?
> >
> > You have nothing to prove any of the other nonsense your spouting.
> >
> > I could accept you "disagreement", but the fact that you don't
> > understand means that you choose to not understand, and thus
> > never will. No amount of explanation will ever help that.
> >
> > But, here are the facts, again.
> >
> > Bush campaigned on the war issue. Kerry campaigned against it.
> > Bush won. Kerry lost. Bush is doing what he said he would do.
> > Bravo for him.
> >
> >
> > Herb Parsons
> >
> > S/V O'Jure
> >    1976 O'Day 25
> >    Lake Grapevine, N TX
> >
> > S/V Reve de Papa
> >    1971 Coronado 35
> >    Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> >
> > >>> cheryl.ogrady at mail.com 11/15/2005 9:39:58 AM >>>
> > Herb,
> > I know you think it is funny that people still believe Bush lost
> > both elections, but the sad fact is: exit polls both times listed
> > his opponent as the winner; our government, Bush administration,
> > supported the cancellation of an election in Ukraine (or
> > someplace) based on exit polls; strangely enough, in most cases,
> > the exit polls only disagreed with the final results in the
> > Presidential race, governors races and senatorial races.  how
> > strange is that.  The saddest thing is that so many people in our
> > country no longer trust that their vote will be counted fairly.
> >
> > I don't think this is very funny.  I think it is downright horrifying.
> >
> > http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Presidential-Election-2004.pdf 
> > You
> > say, jokingly, "None of the war had anything to do with the
> > terror attack on the
> > > US, WMD's (known or unknown), or even patriotism."  Well, the
> > war > didn't have anything to do with the terror attack on the US
> > > because Iraq and Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with the 9/11
> > > hijackings.  That was led by citizens of our great ally, Saudi
> > > Arabia.   WMD's?  A lot of people believed he had them or was >
> > working to get them....but a lot of people didn't, and the >
> > information that was presented to us as the American people to >
> > build the case, didn't include any of the information that >
> > suggested that he didn't.  Let's see, patriotism - are you saying
> > > that we attacked Iraq out of patriotism?  I know that this >
> > message is satirical, but I don't get this one, and I am pretty >
> > sensitive to the fact that many people who supported the war >
> > accused the dissenters of treason.  I would say that people who >
> > believe that have no concept of the true value of America, our >
> > responsibility to disagree with leaders we think are misguided.
> > > Dissent is the highest form of patriotism (Thomas Jefferson).
> > > Which brings us back to....
> >
> > > > "Naturally, the common people don't want war, but
> > > > they can always be brought to the bidding of the
> > > > leaders.  Tell them they are being attacked, and
> > > > denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
> > > > endangering the country.  It works the same in every
> > > > country."  Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reichsmarshall
> > > > at the Nuremburg trials
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> > stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)
> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:30:53 -0600
> >
> > >
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > You just don't get it. All of those mis-statements were due to
> > > the lies that Bush told. I know some of the honest
> > mis-statements > were made back when Bush was still the governor
> > of Texas, but the > poor mis-staters were mis-lead by false
> > intelligence provided by > the former Bush, and operatives of the
> > Bush-to-be. On top of > that, Haliburton had already begun
> > financing the illegal purchase > of the presidency for Bush Jr
> > and thus the mis-staters were being > lied to so that Bush Jr,
> > when he illegally took office, would > have an excuse (lie) so he
> > could start his war of revenge (for > actions against Bush sr)
> > and profits (repayment for Haliburton's > purchase of the
> > presidency).
> > >
> > > None of the war had anything to do with the terror attack on
> > the > US, WMD's (known or unknown), or even patriotism. Bush jr
> > is just > seeking revenge and profits, and he's frustrated
> > because the > Texas Rangers did so poorly when he owned them, and
> > he HAD to win > something.
> > >
> > > On top of that, he stole the election in 2000, and rigged the >
> > ballot boxes in 2004, so he shouldn't even BE in the white house.
> > >
> > > And, Clinton did NOT have sex with that woman.
> > >
> > > If you don't believe any of this, look it up the NLRH book.
> > (New > Liberals Revised History).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Herb Parsons
> > >
> > > S/V O'Jure
> > >    1976 O'Day 25
> > >    Lake Grapevine, N TX
> > >
> > > S/V Reve de Papa
> > >    1971 Coronado 35
> > >    Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> > >
> > > >>> flybrad at yahoo.com 11/15/2005 8:13:43 AM >>>
> > > Cheryl,
> > >
> > > I've got just enough time before taking my daughter to
> > > school to make one poke at the hornet's nest.  Have
> > > you read these quotes from various 'leaders'?
> > >
> > > Brad
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > "Urges the President to take all necessary and
> > > appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by
> > > Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
> > > programs."
> > > * Text of Senate Concurrent Resolution 71, Jan. 28,
> > > 1998, co-sponsored by Democrats Tom Daschle, Patrick
> > > Leahy, Max Cleland, John Kerry and Robert Byrd, among
> > > others
> > >
> > >
> > > "(Iraq) admitted, among other things, an offensive
> > > biological warfare capability * notably 5,000 gallons
> > > of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of
> > > anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157
> > > aerial bombs. And might I say, UNSCOM inspectors
> > > believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its
> > > production."
> > > * Text of President Clinton's address to Joint Chiefs
> > > of Staff and Pentagon staff, Feb. 17, 1998
> > >
> > >
> > > As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am
> > > keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and
> > > biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to
> > > all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the
> > > development of weapons of mass destruction technology,
> > > which is a threat to countries in the region, and he
> > > has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
> > >
> > >
> > > * Press release from Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., Dec.
> > > 16, 1998
> > >
> > >
> > > Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has
> > > proven impossible to deter and we should assume that
> > > it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
> > > * From an address by Al Gore to the Commonwealth Club
> > > of California, Sept. 23, 2002
> > >
> > >
> > > "The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass
> > > destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It
> > > has been with us since the end of that war, and
> > > particularly in the last four years ... he has
> > > continued to build those weapons."
> > > * Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, Oct. 9, 2002
> > >
> > >
> > > "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is
> > > working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and
> > > will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five
> > > years."
> > > * Floor statement of Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West
> > > Virginia, vice chairman of the Senate Select Committee
> > > on Intelligence, Oct. 10, 2002
> > >
> > >
> > > Under Saddam's rule, Iraq has engaged in far-reaching
> > > human rights abuses, been a state sponsor of terrorism
> > > and has long sought to obtain and develop weapons of
> > > mass destruction."
> > > * Statement from the Web site of Senate Minority
> > > Leader Harry Reid of Nevada, dated 2002
> > >
> > > I consider the prospect of a nuclear-armed Saddam
> > > Hussein who can threaten not only his neighbors, but
> > > the stability of the region and the world, a very
> > > serious threat to the United States."
> > > * Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York at a Jan.
> > > 22, 2003, press conference
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Cheryl O'Grady <cheryl.ogrady at mail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Naturally, the common people don't want war, but
> > > > they can always be brought to the bidding of the
> > > > leaders.  Tell them they are being attacked, and
> > > > denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
> > > > endangering the country.  It works the same in every
> > > > country."  Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reichsmarshall
> > > > at the Nuremburg trials
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just came across this.  Sound familiar?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Here's a good website, the name is self-explanatory.
> > > > www.dontblamemeivoted4kerry.com It's bumper stickers and > >
> > t-shirts, but some of the
> > > > lines are pretty funny.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
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> > "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men
> > do nothing."  Edmund Burke, Irish philosopher
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>
> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
> nothing."  Edmund Burke, Irish philosopher
>
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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." 
Edmund Burke, Irish philosopher

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