[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political) - John Murtha chimes in

Thu Nov 17 10:45:05 EST 2005

John Murtha from PA, highly respected (by the Pentagon) is right now calling 
for a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops in Iraq.... on CNN.

Saroj

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)

> Wally,
>
> The Iraq war is so politized that one has to research
> many diverse sources, including first hand information
> like that from your neiphew, to find out what is
> really going on.  In all due respect, your neiphew is
> looking at one small piece of the pie, however, his
> observations are echoed by others looking at that same
> small slice.  Progress is being made in terms of
> school openings, electricity grids being restored
> beyond pre-war status, clean drinking water, etc.
> But, the biggest gains are being made in
> self-government.  The Sunnis didn't take to the street
> with weapons in anticipation of the vote on a new
> constitution, THEY REGISTERED TO VOTE.  How quickly we
> forget those images of millions of purple fingers.  To
> suggest that democracy can't work in Iraq, or any
> Muslim country, dooms a billion people to a life of
> dictators and tyranny.  What are the alternatives?
> Fourteen of nineteen 9/11 attackers came from one of
> the wealthiest nations in the region with a massive
> welfare state.  As a general rule, democracies don't
> attack other democracies.  Now as to the current
> debate in Congress, several members have developed
> amnesia about their earlier positions because a new
> political season is upon us.  This is shameful. To
> suggest that they were duped by a President that they
> imply is "dumb as a box of rocks" would imply that
> they didn't do their due diligence before voting.
> Setting a time specific schedule for withdrawal is
> ludicrous.  All the insurgents have to do is wait out
> the withdrawal and make their move.  THIS IS EXACTLY
> WHAT HAPPENED IN VIETNAM.  They no doubt have read
> their history books and study the political landscape
> in the US as well.
>
> I apologize for once more resorting to "windy"
> references, as you would describe them, however, here
> is a video of a speech that is worth reviewing. Was he
> lying?
>
> http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/11/16/clintoniraq/
>
> Here is an interesting article on WMD's.
>
> http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20154
>
> Brad
>
> --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Brad,
>>
>> Like Slim I would rather hear your opinion not the
>> windy words of others.
>> You make some valid points along with speculation.
>> It seems clear to me that
>> our leaders (the whole nation) were scared after 911
>> and we had to do
>> something. Bush had been itching to go after Irag
>> long before 911. Many of
>> our leaders (from both sides) showed how limited
>> their thinking realy is.
>> They did not know what else to do so we attacked
>> Iraq. I am not so sure that
>> Bush lied just to help out Haliburton. I think he
>> rushed into this without
>> taking the time to make certain we had the facts.
>> Picking a fight is easy.
>> Figuring out aternative solution requires skills
>> that Bush just does not
>> have.
>>
>> I will also add that many of the so called
>> insurgents are from Iraq. My
>> Nephew recently returned from a year in Iraq under
>> private contract. His
>> mission was to help train the Iraqui Police force.
>> You wouldn't believe how
>> poorly this is going. He is a gun-ho ex Army Ranger
>> and I respect his
>> opinion. By the way he just got the word last week,
>> he starts his new job
>> with the FBI March 06.
>>
>> One day we will learn that if a country doesn't ask
>> for our help we
>> shouldn't force it upon them. Seems to me there is a
>> better way to help them
>> blowing the crap out of people.
>>
>> Wally
>>
>>
>> >From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
>> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's
>> nest.... (political)
>> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 06:01:08 -0800 (PST)
>> >
>> >Wally, Rummy, et al,
>> >
>> >What the hell, our Gulfport attorney won't be in
>> her
>> >office for another hour so why not entertain myself
>> >with this?
>> >
>> >Rummy, you accuse me of chest thumping and then go
>> on
>> >to beat your own.  I can hear it all the way to
>> >Tennessee.  Read the rest of your post and get back
>> to
>> >me on that issue.  Re-read my disclaimer on
>> Buchanan.
>> >He is not one of my favorites but that doesn't mean
>> he
>> >isn't dead on from time to time.  I quote the
>> >Clinton's when they are correct on issues, my
>> personal
>> >distaste for Billy which dates back to long before
>> he
>> >was President notwithstanting.  Argue the message,
>> not
>> >the messenger.  I couldn't agree more on the fiscal
>> >responsibility issues and that is why Bush is in
>> such
>> >trouble with some elements of GOP - like me.
>> >
>> >Wally, I thought I made it clear that I was pressed
>> >for time and didn't want to engage in a point for
>> >point debate with Slim, but this shouldn't take
>> long.
>> >
>> >"First the tyranny of Saddam. This is no reason to
>> >invade a sovereign state.The US has ignored or even
>> >supported so many tyrants I can't count 'em.  But
>> just
>> >to name a few, Pinochet, The Shaw of Iran, Kim Jong
>> >Ill, even Saddam himself was armed by the US.  So
>> we
>> >say, "He's abusing his own citizens so we better go
>> in
>> >there and take him down."  Not only is this bad
>> >foreign
>> >policy, but it's bullshit policy because we don't
>> >really care.  We didn't care about the Shaw's death
>> >squads or Pinochet's.  Why now Saddam?  The whole
>> >tyrant argument holds no water at all."
>> >
>> >That's a pretty cynical view Slim.  We supported
>> >Stalin when he was of use to us, and paid a heavy
>> >price.  Past mistakes do not doom us to future
>> >inaction. Are you implying that because we were
>> >previously on the wrong side of history we are
>> damned
>> >to tolerate every despot?
>> >
>> >"The same goes for the argument about spreading
>> >freedom and democracy. What a load of crap!  Don't
>> >tell me that our government actually give a rat's
>> ass
>> >about an Iraqi democracy.  No, I'm not saying
>> >democracy itself is crap, but why would we care
>> about
>> >Iraq when we don't care about the dozens of
>> >other non-democratic countries?  Why Iraq?  Why not
>> >invade Cuba?  Isn't Fidel a tyrant?  Why not North
>> >Korea?  We know Kim Jong Ill is a tyrant.  This is
>> bad
>> >foreign policy."
>> >
>> >It is no secret that we have ignored a lot of
>> tyrants
>> >in the Mid-East because THEY HAVE OIL!  Our
>> "friends"
>> >the Saudi's are perhaps the worst of the lot.  The
>> >leaders of these nations have focussed the
>> attention
>> >of their citizens on hating the US for their
>> miserable
>> >conditions instead of their own leaders.  The
>> >democratic process in Iraq has all ready spilled
>> over
>> >into other countries in the region.  Do you have a
>> >better idea?  A billion Muslims constitute a large
>> >population to ignore.  Are they a threat under
>> their
>> >current leaders?  Uh, yes.  Can we force them to
>> >change?  No, that has to come from within, and it
>> is.
>> >Kim Jong III?  We have China to help handle that.
>> >Fidel?  A lot of Cubans in Miami would love to
>> invade
>> >Cuba.  Bay of Pigs ring a bell?  He was a threat
>> then,
>> >not now unless you consider cornering the market on
>> >57' Chevys a threat.
>> >
>> >"I agreed with Mike Abdullah when he stated we had
>> no
>> >business in Kuwait in the first place.  We
>> shouldn't
>> >be fighting other countries' border battles. As
>> Mike
>> >said, What was Saddam going to do with his oil?
>> Drink
>> >it?  He was selling it on the open market and black
>> >market just like every other Arab state.  That was
>> bad
>> >foreign policy."
>> >
>> >Gee Slim, that sounds familiar.  Poland, Austria,
>> >Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc., "peace in our time",
>> >yada, yada, yada.  Remember what Santayana wrote
>> about
>> >repeating history.  What did he do with his oil?
>> Buy
>> >weapons from the French, Germans and Russians?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"But whatever, then we had Saddam completely
>> contained
>> >with the
>> >no-fly-zone and the sanctions.  He was no threat to
>> >us.  Perhaps he was a "threat" to Israel, but why
>> go
>> >to war with someone you've already beaten?  This is
>> >bad foreign policy."
>> >
>> >Actually Slim, Saddam used to shoot at us in the no
>> >fly zone.  I'd be happy to introduce you to some of
>> my
>> >co-workers who can vouch for that.  Perhaps he was
>> a
>> >threat to Israel?  Does paying $25,000 to families
>> >that provide suicide bombers in Israel constitute a
>> >threat?
>> >
>> >"Did we need to go in and hunt for WMD?  Do we need
>> to
>> >go into ANY country hunting for WMD?  Again, why
>> not
>> >North Korea?  This is bad foreign policy."
>> >
>> >Read above about China and North Korea.
>> >
>> >"Did we need to go into Iraq to control the oil?
>> No.
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list 