[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political) - JohnMurtha chimes in

Thu Nov 17 12:58:59 EST 2005

It's not an "insurgent war." That's the media hype, and unfortunately too many "buy into" the phrase. They're not insurgents, they're from other countries. Even those opposed to the war on this list have acknowledged as much when they say that a major mistake was not sealing the borders. There's no problem with sealing the borders, unless the "insurgents" were OUTSIDE those borders.

Bizarre? So, you think that Saddam would have kept his "horrors" local had he not been stopped at the borders? I think the comparison of the Iraq war to WWII is MUCH more valid than the comparison to the Vietnam war (even though I think a better comparison would be to WWI). The big difference in the WWII (or WWI) analogies is that this time we got involved early on.

Herb Parsons

S/V O'Jure
  1976 O'Day 25
  Lake Grapevine, N TX

S/V Reve de Papa
  1971 Coronado 35
  Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast

>>> saroj at pathfind.net 11/17/2005 12:31:41 PM >>>
Brad, this wasn't a CNN scoop.. Murtha was speaking himself.

Murtha along with others who have experienced an insurgent war (e.g., Rummy) 
seem to have some idea about how a war like this needs to be fought.. is it 
possible that in the Fall of 2003 he could see that the path the US was 
taking was doomed to failure?

I think to compare our invasion of Iraq to WWII is bizarre at best.  Between 
the Germans and the Japanese, the horrors were widespread and extreme.  If 
you "remember", we were VERY late getting into this war.. far too late in my 
view.

I also supported the war with Iraq based on the presentation of intelligence 
presented by Colin Powell "prior" to our going to war.. I don't now and 
haven't for months... irrespective of any polls... I certainly don't 
consider myself a sheep and could give a crap about how the masses think 
about it.

Saroj

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political) - 
JohnMurtha chimes in

> Saroj,
>
> Murtha voted to go to war, then as early as Fall of
> 2003, gave a joint press conference with Pelosi
> condeming the conduct of the war.  One of his beefs
> was that the Pentagon wasn't answering his letters.
> Maybe he isn't as respected as he thinks.  He called
> for troop withdrawals in the Spring of 2004 so CNN
> hardly has a scoop.  With Bush at new lows in the
> polls and the Iraq war losing support, expect a lot
> more in Congress to jump on the withdrawal bandwagon.
> They were all for war when the public sentiment was
> behind it.  Are they following their real gut
> instincts or like sheep, following the polls?  Even
> former President Clinton is testing the waters on the
> anti-war front,  though this is in complete opposition
> to a multitude of speeches and statements he made
> during his administration.  Thank goodness these
> spineless cowards weren't around during D-Day.  We'd
> have pulled out at the first hedgerow.
>
> Brad
>
> --- Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
>
>> John Murtha from PA, highly respected (by the
>> Pentagon) is right now calling
>> for a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops in Iraq....
>> on CNN.
>>
>> Saroj
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's
>> nest.... (political)
>>
>>
>> > Wally,
>> >
>> > The Iraq war is so politized that one has to
>> research
>> > many diverse sources, including first hand
>> information
>> > like that from your neiphew, to find out what is
>> > really going on.  In all due respect, your neiphew
>> is
>> > looking at one small piece of the pie, however,
>> his
>> > observations are echoed by others looking at that
>> same
>> > small slice.  Progress is being made in terms of
>> > school openings, electricity grids being restored
>> > beyond pre-war status, clean drinking water, etc.
>> > But, the biggest gains are being made in
>> > self-government.  The Sunnis didn't take to the
>> street
>> > with weapons in anticipation of the vote on a new
>> > constitution, THEY REGISTERED TO VOTE.  How
>> quickly we
>> > forget those images of millions of purple fingers.
>>  To
>> > suggest that democracy can't work in Iraq, or any
>> > Muslim country, dooms a billion people to a life
>> of
>> > dictators and tyranny.  What are the alternatives?
>> > Fourteen of nineteen 9/11 attackers came from one
>> of
>> > the wealthiest nations in the region with a
>> massive
>> > welfare state.  As a general rule, democracies
>> don't
>> > attack other democracies.  Now as to the current
>> > debate in Congress, several members have developed
>> > amnesia about their earlier positions because a
>> new
>> > political season is upon us.  This is shameful. To
>> > suggest that they were duped by a President that
>> they
>> > imply is "dumb as a box of rocks" would imply that
>> > they didn't do their due diligence before voting.
>> > Setting a time specific schedule for withdrawal is
>> > ludicrous.  All the insurgents have to do is wait
>> out
>> > the withdrawal and make their move.  THIS IS
>> EXACTLY
>> > WHAT HAPPENED IN VIETNAM.  They no doubt have read
>> > their history books and study the political
>> landscape
>> > in the US as well.
>> >
>> > I apologize for once more resorting to "windy"
>> > references, as you would describe them, however,
>> here
>> > is a video of a speech that is worth reviewing.
>> Was he
>> > lying?
>> >
>> >
>> http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/11/16/clintoniraq/ 
>> >
>> > Here is an interesting article on WMD's.
>> >
>> >
>>
> http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20154 
>> >
>> > Brad
>> >
>> > --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Brad,
>> >>
>> >> Like Slim I would rather hear your opinion not
>> the
>> >> windy words of others.
>> >> You make some valid points along with
>> speculation.
>> >> It seems clear to me that
>> >> our leaders (the whole nation) were scared after
>> 911
>> >> and we had to do
>> >> something. Bush had been itching to go after Irag
>> >> long before 911. Many of
>> >> our leaders (from both sides) showed how limited
>> >> their thinking realy is.
>> >> They did not know what else to do so we attacked
>> >> Iraq. I am not so sure that
>> >> Bush lied just to help out Haliburton. I think he
>> >> rushed into this without
>> >> taking the time to make certain we had the facts.
>> >> Picking a fight is easy.
>> >> Figuring out aternative solution requires skills
>> >> that Bush just does not
>> >> have.
>> >>
>> >> I will also add that many of the so called
>> >> insurgents are from Iraq. My
>> >> Nephew recently returned from a year in Iraq
>> under
>> >> private contract. His
>> >> mission was to help train the Iraqui Police
>> force.
>> >> You wouldn't believe how
>> >> poorly this is going. He is a gun-ho ex Army
>> Ranger
>> >> and I respect his
>> >> opinion. By the way he just got the word last
>> week,
>> >> he starts his new job
>> >> with the FBI March 06.
>> >>
>> >> One day we will learn that if a country doesn't
>> ask
>> >> for our help we
>> >> shouldn't force it upon them. Seems to me there
>> is a
>> >> better way to help them
>> >> blowing the crap out of people.
>> >>
>> >> Wally
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
>> >> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the
>> hornet's
>> >> nest.... (political)
>> >> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 06:01:08 -0800 (PST)
>> >> >
>> >> >Wally, Rummy, et al,
>> >> >
>> >> >What the hell, our Gulfport attorney won't be in
>> >> her
>> >> >office for another hour so why not entertain
>> myself
>> >> >with this?
>> >> >
>> >> >Rummy, you accuse me of chest thumping and then
>> go
>> >> on
>> >> >to beat your own.  I can hear it all the way to
>> >> >Tennessee.  Read the rest of your post and get
>> back
>> >> to
>> >> >me on that issue.  Re-read my disclaimer on
>> >> Buchanan.
>> >> >He is not one of my favorites but that doesn't
>> mean
>> >> he
>> >> >isn't dead on from time to time.  I quote the
>> >> >Clinton's when they are correct on issues, my
>> >> personal
>> >> >distaste for Billy which dates back to long
>> before
>> >> he
>> >> >was President notwithstanting.  Argue the
>> message,
>> >> not
>> >> >the messenger.  I couldn't agree more on the
>> fiscal
>> >> >responsibility issues and that is why Bush is in
>> >> such
>> >> >trouble with some elements of GOP - like me.
>> >> >
>> >> >Wally, I thought I made it clear that I was
>> pressed
>> >> >for time and didn't want to engage in a point
>> for
>> >> >point debate with Slim, but this shouldn't take
>> >> long.
>> >> >
>> >> >"First the tyranny of Saddam. This is no reason
>> to
>> >> >invade a sovereign state.The US has ignored or
>> even
>> >> >supported so many tyrants I can't count 'em.
>> But
>> >> just
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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