[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political) - JohnMurtha chimes in

[Slim]

Hank,

Very interesting.  Thanks for posting.  It reads like an episode of "Mail
Call" which I watch often.  I'm glad to hear the old government .45 is still
king.  I have one myself -- sporting use only, of course.

Slim
P.S. Don't shoot the piano player--he might shoot back.

On 11/17/05 2:11 PM, "Hank" <hnw555 at gmail.com> wrote:

> The following is a report from a grunt in Iraq and is something that will
> almost never be shown on the left leaning news networks.
> 
> Subject: Report From Down Range
> 
> This was sent to me a West Coast USAR CW3 who got it from a Semper Fi, UAL
> retired, east coast type.
> 
> Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested
> guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son Jordan, who
> was on his first leave since returning from Iraq. He is well (a little
> thin), and already bored. He will be returning to Iraq for a second tour in
> early 06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years. He loves the
> Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.
> 
> Jordan spent 7 months at Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache. He
> saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons,
> equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to
> you.
> 
> Nothing is by any means classified. No politics here, just a Marine with a
> birds eye views opinions:
> 
> 1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum
> powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel
> filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is
> more popular because its lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems
> also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and
> weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in
> a desert environment.
> 
> They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock
> structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on
> to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a
> high level of opiate use.
> 
> 2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine
> gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of shit. Chronic
> jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that fun in
> the middle of a firefight).
> 
> 3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert
> environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for
> self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys
> hit multiple times and still in the fight.
> 
> 4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing
> houses to good effect.
> 
> 5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun,
> developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!).
> Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts em down. Originally
> developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted
> and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure
> over there.
> 
> 6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. Ma deuce is still
> worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts
> their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.
> 
> 7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there.
> Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one.
> With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put em down with a torso
> hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK
> military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45s are
> being re-issued en masse.
> 
> 8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a
> modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight
> Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the
> sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.
> 
> 9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and
> accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle
> suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy.
> Definitely here to stay.
> 
> 10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag.
> Heavily modified Remington 700s. Great performance. Snipers have been used
> heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour
> in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcocks record for
> confirmed kills with OVER 100.
> 
> 11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and
> can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an
> AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as shit to wear, almost unbearable in the
> summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for
> head shots whenever possible. All the bullshit about the old body armor
> making our guys vulnerable to the IEDs was a non-starter. The IED explosions
> are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most
> cases.
> 
> 12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular
> performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little
> enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at
> night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.
> 
> 13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are
> Surefires, and the troops love em. Invaluable for night urban operations.
> Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.
> 
> I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance
> are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, its the WWII and
> Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is
> frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.
> 
> Bad guy weapons:
> 
> 1) Mostly AK47s . The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the
> desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed
> light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly
> shoots like shit. Undisciplined spray and pray type fire. However, they are
> seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran,
> again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship
> of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad
> school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily
> beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Lets just say
> they know better now.
> 
> 2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple,
> reliable and as common as dogshit. The enemy responded to our up-armored
> humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still
> killing a lot of our guys.
> 
> 3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet
> anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in
> Jordansarea were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm
> artillery
> shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the
> explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank.
> Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately,
> they are much more sophisticated shape charges (Iranian) specifically
> designed to penetrate armor.
> 
> Fact: Most of the ready made IEDs are supplied by Iran, who is also
> providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use
> and tactics. Thats why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their
> concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in
> Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter
> all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb
> disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.
> 
> 4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with
> an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordans NCOs lost a leg
> to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage inside the wire. Jordans base
> was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often
> at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a
> psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump
> out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of
> seconds.
> 
> 5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell
> and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS
> units for navigation and Google earth for overhead views of our positions.
> Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and
> bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very
> careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are
> treasure troves of Intel when captured.
> 
> Who are the bad guys?:
> 
> Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate
> mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly foreigners,
> non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe).
> Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity
> of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down the at line which is the trail
> of towns along the Euphrates River that weve been hitting hard for the last
> few months. Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up
> as suicide bombers or in sacrifice squads. Most, however, are hard core
> terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.)
> These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting
> heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are supposedly the
> most ruthless and the best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians
> for years). In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are
> Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very
> adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt., the police forces and the Army.
> The have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq
> war in the early 80s. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or
> gave up long ago.
> 
> Bad Guy Tactics:
> 
> When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every
> time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common
> earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man
> teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Aks and RPGs
> directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like
> grass every time. (see the M2 and M240 above). Jordans base was hit like
> this often. When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building,
> probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call
> in air and thats the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are
> referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeos (Allahs Waiting Room). We have the laser
> guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast movers, mostly Marine
> F-18s, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in
> the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to
> ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly,
> artillery is hardly used at all.
> 
> Fun fact:
> 
> The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why were
> seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber shit. The
> new strategy is simple: attrition.
> 
> The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian
> non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian
> casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are
> locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and
> flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian
> casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone
> believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt.
> Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common to influence
> people they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as local govt.
> officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.).
> 
> The first thing our guys are told is don't get captured. They know that if
> captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly
> offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This
> motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a shit about the
> war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common
> criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the
> death. Surrender is not an option.
> 
> The Iraqis are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a shit.
> Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are
> getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawis use of suicide bombers, en
> masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many
> Iraqis were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the
> police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an
> exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqis are sick of the
> insurgent attacks against civilians.
> 
> The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.
> 
> According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only
> believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are
> stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they
> almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised
> and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then
> see shit like Are we losing in Iraq on TV and the print media. For the most
> part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership. Bottom
> line though, and they all say this, there are not enough guys there to drive
> the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there
> aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and
> Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just cant stand the thought of
> Iraqbeing an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases
> there).
> 
> Anyway guys, thats it, hope you found it interesting, I sure did.
> 
> 
> On 11/17/05, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It's not an "insurgent war." That's the media hype, and unfortunately too
>> many "buy into" the phrase. They're not insurgents, they're from other
>> countries. Even those opposed to the war on this list have acknowledged as
>> much when they say that a major mistake was not sealing the borders. There's
>> no problem with sealing the borders, unless the "insurgents" were OUTSIDE
>> those borders.
>> 
>> Bizarre? So, you think that Saddam would have kept his "horrors" local had
>> he not been stopped at the borders? I think the comparison of the Iraq war
>> to WWII is MUCH more valid than the comparison to the Vietnam war (even
>> though I think a better comparison would be to WWI). The big difference in
>> the WWII (or WWI) analogies is that this time we got involved early on.
>> 
>> Herb Parsons
>> 
>> S/V O'Jure
>> 1976 O'Day 25
>> Lake Grapevine, N TX
>> 
>> S/V Reve de Papa
>> 1971 Coronado 35
>> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>> 
>>>>> saroj at pathfind.net 11/17/2005 12:31:41 PM >>>
>> Brad, this wasn't a CNN scoop.. Murtha was speaking himself.
>> 
>> Murtha along with others who have experienced an insurgent war (e.g.,
>> Rummy)
>> seem to have some idea about how a war like this needs to be fought.. is
>> it
>> possible that in the Fall of 2003 he could see that the path the US was
>> taking was doomed to failure?
>> 
>> I think to compare our invasion of Iraq to WWII is bizarre at best.
>> Between
>> the Germans and the Japanese, the horrors were widespread and extreme. If
>> you "remember", we were VERY late getting into this war.. far too late in
>> my
>> view.
>> 
>> I also supported the war with Iraq based on the presentation of
>> intelligence
>> presented by Colin Powell "prior" to our going to war.. I don't now and
>> haven't for months... irrespective of any polls... I certainly don't
>> consider myself a sheep and could give a crap about how the masses think
>> about it.
>> 
>> Saroj
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political) -
>> JohnMurtha chimes in
>> 
>> 
>>> Saroj,
>>> 
>>> Murtha voted to go to war, then as early as Fall of
>>> 2003, gave a joint press conference with Pelosi
>>> condeming the conduct of the war. One of his beefs
>>> was that the Pentagon wasn't answering his letters.
>>> Maybe he isn't as respected as he thinks. He called
>>> for troop withdrawals in the Spring of 2004 so CNN
>>> hardly has a scoop. With Bush at new lows in the
>>> polls and the Iraq war losing support, expect a lot
>>> more in Congress to jump on the withdrawal bandwagon.
>>> They were all for war when the public sentiment was
>>> behind it. Are they following their real gut
>>> instincts or like sheep, following the polls? Even
>>> former President Clinton is testing the waters on the
>>> anti-war front, though this is in complete opposition
>>> to a multitude of speeches and statements he made
>>> during his administration. Thank goodness these
>>> spineless cowards weren't around during D-Day. We'd
>>> have pulled out at the first hedgerow.
>>> 
>>> Brad
>>> 
>>> --- Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> John Murtha from PA, highly respected (by the
>>>> Pentagon) is right now calling
>>>> for a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops in Iraq....
>>>> on CNN.
>>>> 
>>>> Saroj
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:37 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's
>>>> nest.... (political)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Wally,
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Iraq war is so politized that one has to
>>>> research
>>>>> many diverse sources, including first hand
>>>> information
>>>>> like that from your neiphew, to find out what is
>>>>> really going on. In all due respect, your neiphew
>>>> is
>>>>> looking at one small piece of the pie, however,
>>>> his
>>>>> observations are echoed by others looking at that
>>>> same
>>>>> small slice. Progress is being made in terms of
>>>>> school openings, electricity grids being restored
>>>>> beyond pre-war status, clean drinking water, etc.
>>>>> But, the biggest gains are being made in
>>>>> self-government. The Sunnis didn't take to the
>>>> street
>>>>> with weapons in anticipation of the vote on a new
>>>>> constitution, THEY REGISTERED TO VOTE. How
>>>> quickly we
>>>>> forget those images of millions of purple fingers.
>>>> To
>>>>> suggest that democracy can't work in Iraq, or any
>>>>> Muslim country, dooms a billion people to a life
>>>> of
>>>>> dictators and tyranny. What are the alternatives?
>>>>> Fourteen of nineteen 9/11 attackers came from one
>>>> of
>>>>> the wealthiest nations in the region with a
>>>> massive
>>>>> welfare state. As a general rule, democracies
>>>> don't
>>>>> attack other democracies. Now as to the current
>>>>> debate in Congress, several members have developed
>>>>> amnesia about their earlier positions because a
>>>> new
>>>>> political season is upon us. This is shameful. To
>>>>> suggest that they were duped by a President that
>>>> they
>>>>> imply is "dumb as a box of rocks" would imply that
>>>>> they didn't do their due diligence before voting.
>>>>> Setting a time specific schedule for withdrawal is
>>>>> ludicrous. All the insurgents have to do is wait
>>>> out
>>>>> the withdrawal and make their move. THIS IS
>>>> EXACTLY
>>>>> WHAT HAPPENED IN VIETNAM. They no doubt have read
>>>>> their history books and study the political
>>>> landscape
>>>>> in the US as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I apologize for once more resorting to "windy"
>>>>> references, as you would describe them, however,
>>>> here
>>>>> is a video of a speech that is worth reviewing.
>>>> Was he
>>>>> lying?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/11/16/clintoniraq/
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here is an interesting article on WMD's.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20154
>>>>> 
>>>>> Brad
>>>>> 
>>>>> --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Brad,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Like Slim I would rather hear your opinion not
>>>> the
>>>>>> windy words of others.
>>>>>> You make some valid points along with
>>>> speculation.
>>>>>> It seems clear to me that
>>>>>> our leaders (the whole nation) were scared after
>>>> 911
>>>>>> and we had to do
>>>>>> something. Bush had been itching to go after Irag
>>>>>> long before 911. Many of
>>>>>> our leaders (from both sides) showed how limited
>>>>>> their thinking realy is.
>>>>>> They did not know what else to do so we attacked
>>>>>> Iraq. I am not so sure that
>>>>>> Bush lied just to help out Haliburton. I think he
>>>>>> rushed into this without
>>>>>> taking the time to make certain we had the facts.
>>>>>> Picking a fight is easy.
>>>>>> Figuring out aternative solution requires skills
>>>>>> that Bush just does not
>>>>>> have.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I will also add that many of the so called
>>>>>> insurgents are from Iraq. My
>>>>>> Nephew recently returned from a year in Iraq
>>>> under
>>>>>> private contract. His
>>>>>> mission was to help train the Iraqui Police
>>>> force.
>>>>>> You wouldn't believe how
>>>>>> poorly this is going. He is a gun-ho ex Army
>>>> Ranger
>>>>>> and I respect his
>>>>>> opinion. By the way he just got the word last
>>>> week,
>>>>>> he starts his new job
>>>>>> with the FBI March 06.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> One day we will learn that if a country doesn't
>>>> ask
>>>>>> for our help we
>>>>>> shouldn't force it upon them. Seems to me there
>>>> is a
>>>>>> better way to help them
>>>>>> blowing the crap out of people.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the
>>>> hornet's
>>>>>> nest.... (political)
>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 06:01:08 -0800 (PST)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Wally, Rummy, et al,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What the hell, our Gulfport attorney won't be in
>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> office for another hour so why not entertain
>>>> myself
>>>>>>> with this?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rummy, you accuse me of chest thumping and then
>>>> go
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> to beat your own. I can hear it all the way to
>>>>>>> Tennessee. Read the rest of your post and get
>>>> back
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> me on that issue. Re-read my disclaimer on
>>>>>> Buchanan.
>>>>>>> He is not one of my favorites but that doesn't
>>>> mean
>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> isn't dead on from time to time. I quote the
>>>>>>> Clinton's when they are correct on issues, my
>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>> distaste for Billy which dates back to long
>>>> before
>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> was President notwithstanting. Argue the
>>>> message,
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> the messenger. I couldn't agree more on the
>>>> fiscal
>>>>>>> responsibility issues and that is why Bush is in
>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> trouble with some elements of GOP - like me.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Wally, I thought I made it clear that I was
>>>> pressed
>>>>>>> for time and didn't want to engage in a point
>>>> for
>>>>>>> point debate with Slim, but this shouldn't take
>>>>>> long.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "First the tyranny of Saddam. This is no reason
>>>> to
>>>>>>> invade a sovereign state.The US has ignored or
>>>> even
>>>>>>> supported so many tyrants I can't count 'em.
>>>> But
>>>>>> just
>>>> 
>>> === message truncated ===
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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