[Rhodes22-list] (political) response to Brad

Mon Nov 21 19:11:55 EST 2005

Bill,
 Is that a freudian slip that you responded to the head question email on
the politcal e-mail thread? Since most of the politicos, party immaterial,
are full of s**t, they probably need a working head much more than we do!
 Hank

 On 11/21/05, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>
> Great idea, Jim!
>
> For me, all this started on a Sunfish. After you've been on a Sunfish
> for a certain number of hours you've got some decisions to make if
> you're nowhere near shore, and won't get back for a while.
>
> I'd never been on a boat the size of a Rhodes with a great head.
> Between being out on a mooring, and being out a lot, I'm seldom on the
> boat for fewer than 6-8 hours. The head gets a lot of use. It's nice
> to have one that stays clean and is easy for guests to use. I think a
> lot of people coming onto a small sailboat for the first time worry and
> wonder exactly how that's going to shake out.
>
> Bill Effros
>
>
> Jim White wrote:
>
> >When it's too rough, I pee directly into the bilge, avoiding the porta
> potti, and just let the bilge pump handle it.....screw the clean water act.
> > jw
> >
> >"Steven L. Mutart" <SMutart at CWRLaw.com> wrote:
> > Go for it Cheryl: I got tired of reading about porta potties and bilge
> pumps. Speaking of chicken hawks, I note it's been awhile since our fearless
> leader uttered those famous words "Bring 'em on!!"
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Cheryl O'Grady [mailto:cheryl.ogrady at mail.com]
> >Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:44 PM
> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] (political) response to Brad
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>spending four months in a war theatre, or four years
> >>for that matter, doesn't give one magical powers to be
> >>a military leader.
> >>
> >>
> >spending four years in a war theater might have given all the
> "chicken-hawks," as they have been dubbed, a little more reluctance to send
> people into harms way based on intelligence that is daily proving to have
> been shaky, at best. (an article in today's paper talked about information
> the Germans gave the US but qualified it all over the place, because the
> source was unreliable. our government then touted this information all over
> the place as fact)
> >
> >
> >
> >>Re-read the constitution. The head of the military is
> >>a civilian, always has been. Prior military
> >>experience is not a requirement.
> >>
> >>
> >No, we don't want to require military service. However, we have an
> administration of war hawks who all AVOIDED active service in a war theater,
> some with deferments, others by joining the Guard (the "I served" way of
> avoiding VietNam).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>"A President has to rely on the commanders in the field and their
> assesments. You may
> >>be right on this; we may need more troops before we have less."
> >>
> >>
> >Which general was it who was more or less removed from his position
> because, before the war started, he advocated a number of troops needed that
> was far higher than Rumsfeld wanted - was it Shalikasvili (sorry if I have
> murdered the spelling)?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Cheryl, there are hundreds if not thousands of blogs
> >>and websites from soldiers in Iraq. They will be
> >>happy to correspond with you and let you know what
> >>their feelings and needs are. At least read a few of
> >>them. Right now they are extremely pissed off at the
> >>press for not covering all the good things that they
> >>are achieving and are mad as hell that members of
> >>Congress are talking "cut and run".
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I never said I don't believe our military aren't doing good things. Each
> and every one of them is a hero, in my mind. I, too, am angry with Congress
> for it's "cut and run" rhetoric. I feel the press is covering a lot of the
> good things they do. But I am so damn pissed off that they are there in the
> first place. I repeat, how do we express this anger without denigrating the
> soldiers doing the fighting?
> >
> >Cheryl
> >
> >
> >
> >>Cheryl,
> >>
> >>Let's start with the end of your response first.
> >>Re-read the constitution. The head of the military is
> >>a civilian, always has been. Prior military
> >>experience is not a requirement. Good thing,
> >>otherwise we would have been denied wartime leaders A.
> >>Lincoln (but for a weekend in the Indian hunting
> >>militia), FDR, and that brave warrior, the "Bomber of
> >>Bosnia", William Jefferson Clinton. Serving in the
> >>Reserve is hardly avoiding service, look at the number
> >>of Reservists killed in our current battle (I say
> >>battle because the GWT won't be over in our lifetime).
> >>One of the lessons we learned from Vietnam (or should
> >>have learned) is that you don't draft 18 and 19 year
> >>olds, send them into battle with no unit cohesion, and
> >>expect them to be happy soldiers. Conversely,
> >>spending four months in a war theatre, or four years
> >>for that matter, doesn't give one magical powers to be
> >>a military leader. And by the way, do you know
> >>anything about the aircraft W flew, or its mission?
> >>Vietnam wasn't any safer nor was his aircraft a
> >>safehaven from 'Nam deployment.
> >>
> >>Now let's start from the top of your letter and work
> >>down.
> >>
> >>We needed to send in more troops? Maybe. Tommy
> >>Franks position in his book "American Soldier" was
> >>that the logistical tail was already getting too long
> >>during the march to Baghdad and the 4th ID was bogged
> >>down in Kuwait after Turkey denied entry from the
> >>north. However, and this is a big however, perhaps we
> >>should have followed-up with more "boots" once the
> >>incredibly rapid march toward Baghdad was over. If
> >>this was a failing, it will be debated in the War
> >>College and by historians for a long time. We saw how
> >>well LBJ did micro-managing a war from the basement of
> >>the White House. A President has to rely on the
> >>commanders in the field and their assesments. You may
> >>be right on this; we may need more troops before we
> >>have less.
> >>
> >>"We broke it, we need to fix it." Thank you. That is
> >>what Colin Powell said during the run-up to war, he
> >>called it the "Pottery Barn" rule. Leaving now
> >>without the legitimate Iraqi government having the
> >>ability to defend itself from civil war would be
> >>foolish.
> >>
> >>"How do you suggest that people who are against the
> >>war should express their dissent and dissatisfaction
> >>in such s way as to honor the people doing the
> >>fighting..........?"
> >>
> >>Cheryl, there are hundreds if not thousands of blogs
> >>and websites from soldiers in Iraq. They will be
> >>happy to correspond with you and let you know what
> >>their feelings and needs are. At least read a few of
> >>them. Right now they are extremely pissed off at the
> >>press for not covering all the good things that they
> >>are achieving and are mad as hell that members of
> >>Congress are talking "cut and run". Try Google.
> >>
> >>Brad
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--- Cheryl O'Grady wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Bob,
> >>>I found your post very interesting, particularly the
> >>>conclusion that we need more troops to close the
> >>>borders.
> >>>
> >>>Believe it or not, because I never supported the
> >>>invasion of Iraq, I think we need to send more
> >>>troops in to get the job finished so we can get out
> >>>and go home. See, once they decided to do it, they
> >>>should have done it right. My heart goes out to the
> >>>troops who feel we don't support them. I do, and so
> >>>do most who are against the war. I don't advocate
> >>>an immediate pullout, that would be wrong, for all
> >>>the guys who died or were maimed during service
> >>>there, and also for the civilians who would be left
> >>>in the middle of a vicious civil war. We broke it,
> >>>we need to fix it. We just had no business going in
> >>>in the first place.
> >>>
> >>>How do you suggest that people who are against the
> >>>war should express their dissent and dissatisfaction
> >>>in such a way as to honor the people doing the
> >>>fighting while dumping porta-potti contents on the
> >>>draft-dodgers who got us in there in the first
> >>>place? Oh, sorry, those were deferments, weren't
> >>>they, and daddy-connected reserve jobs....not
> >>>draft-dodging.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Robert Skinner"
> >>>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> >>>
> >>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's
> >>>nest.... (political) -JohnMurtha chimes in
> >>>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:09:14 -0500
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Mike -
> >>>>>What do you think of this? It showed up in my
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>inbox, unsolicited,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>but may be valid. I trust no source any more,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>except friends who
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>are coming back, and each of them has a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>necessarily limited view
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>of the conflict/situation.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>How does it square with what you are hearing?
> >>>>>Do you have an opinion about whether we should
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>pull out?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Or should we send in enuf troops to seal borders?
> >>>>Do we have enuf force to seal borders?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>/Bob
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>The following is a report from a grunt in Iraq
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>and is something that will
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>almost never be shown on the left leaning news
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>networks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Subject: Report From Down Range
> >>>>>
> >>>>>This was sent to me a West Coast USAR CW3 who
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>got it from a Semper Fi, UAL
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>retired, east coast type.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>veterans and interested
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>time with my son Jordan, who
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>was on his first leave since returning from
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>Iraq. He is well (a little
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>thin), and already bored. He will be returning
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>to Iraq for a second tour in
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>early 06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>more years. He loves the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>returning to Iraq.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Jordan spent 7 months at Camp Blue Diamond in
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache. He
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>saw and did a lot and the following is what he
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>told me about weapons,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>which may be of interest to
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Nothing is by any means classified. No politics
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>here, just a Marine with a
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>birds eye views opinions:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>problems with the talcum
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>powder like sand over there. The sand is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>everywhere. Jordan says you feel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>The M-4 carbine version is
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>more popular because its lighter and shorter,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>but it has jamming problems
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>also. They like the ability to mount the various
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>optical gunsights and
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>weapon itself is not great in
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>a desert environment.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>penetration on the cinderblock
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>structure common over there and even torso hits
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>cant be reliably counted on
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>autopsies on dead insurgents shows a
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>high level of opiate use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>cal. Drum fed light machine
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>piece of shit. Chronic
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>jamming problems, most of which require partial
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>disassembly. (that fun in
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>the middle of a firefight).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>performs well in desert
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>environment; but they all hate the 9mm
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>cartridge. The use of handguns for
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>story on the 9mm: Bad guys
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>hit multiple times and still in the fight.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>used frequently for clearing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>houses to good effect.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>belt fed machine gun,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>developed to replace the old M-60 (what a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>beautiful weapon that was!!).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>round puts em down. Originally
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>more are being dismounted
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>round chews up the structure
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>over there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>way up. Ma deuce is still
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>worth her considerable weight in gold. The
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>ultimate fight stopper, puts
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>their dicks in the dirt every time. The most
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>coveted weapon in-theater.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>pistol round out there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>trying to get their hands on one.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>put em down with a torso
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>the pistol work) use the HK
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>military model and supposedly love it. The old
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>government model .45s are
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>being re-issued en masse.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>in bulk, mostly in a
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>modified version to special ops guys.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>Modifications include lightweight
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>sights. Very reliable in the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>up. Spectacular range and
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>frequently to take out vehicle
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>them) and barricaded enemy.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Definitely here to stay.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>.308 but some in 300 win mag.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Heavily modified Remington 700s. Great
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>performance. Snipers have been used
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>marine sniper on his third tour
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>Hathcocks record for
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>confirmed kills with OVER 100.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>light at approx. 6 lbs. and
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>can reliably be expected to soak up small
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>shrapnel and even will stop an
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as shit to wear,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>almost unbearable in the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>Also, the enemy now goes for
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>head shots whenever possible. All the bullshit
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>about
> >>>
> >>>
> >>=== message truncated ===
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>__________________________________
> >>Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> >>http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>__________________________________________________
> >>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list<http://www.rhodes22.org/list>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
> nothing." Edmund Burke, Irish philosopher
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list<http://www.rhodes22.org/list>
> >__________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Jim White
> >Le Menagerie
> >www.lemenagerie.blogspot.com <http://www.lemenagerie.blogspot.com>
> >
> >---------------------------------
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> >
> >
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