[Rhodes22-list] Why Rebuild New Orleans?

Sat Sep 17 17:35:36 EDT 2005

Michael,

Sorry about the time stamp.  I was working around some copy protection, 
and forgot to reset it.

With regard to the rest, I was not playing fast and loose with the 
facts, and it would be nice if you didn't play fast and loose with the 
facts, either.  Maybe you are the one who should step back.

I put the word "stilts" in quotation marks because that is what they are 
often called in other parts of the country.  Here we call them "pilings". 

Manhattan is not solid stone a "few feet down."  The bedrock is 65 to 80 
feet below the current surface in lower Manhattan, and pilings must be 
driven down to that level to support large buildings like the World 
Trade Center.   Above the bedrock is 5 to 20 feet of glacial till.  
Above the glacial till is a 20 to 35 foot thick layer of glacial 
outwash, sand and silt.  Above the outwash is a 10 to 30 foot layer of 
river mud.  And above the river mud is 15 to 35 feet of fill comprised, 
not only of excavation spoil, but also demolition debris, marine 
construction, abandoned vessels, lost cargo, and garbage.

The proportions vary from location to location, but on the West Street 
side of the World Trade Center site--where the Dutch docked their ships 
at the same time that New Orleans was being populated by the French--the 
fill is 20-35 feet deep.  If this is such a great idea for New York 
City, why isn't it a great idea for New Orleans?  If you filled the area 
behind the levees to a depth of 20-35 feet those houses would be "above 
sea level", too.  Just make sure the levees don't break in either place, 
and understand that if you feel it's ok to rebuild government mistakes 
in one place, then you've going to have to rebuild them in the other.

The subway system never flooded due to a break in the underground levee 
system in NYC that could not be repaired.  It is true that the subway 
system goes through the bedrock, but as noted above, virtually all of 
that bedrock is 50 feet or more below sea level.   Many of the subways 
that cross the rivers go under the river bottoms, through the bedrock.

Nobody said the World Trade Center towers were designed for 707 hits and 
not 767 hits the day before the 767s hit.  What they said was "You can't 
knock down the World Trade Center with an airplane."  All of these 
calculations were rechecked after terrorists tried to knock down the 
World Trade Center with a truck load of explosives near pilings in a 
sub-basement in 1993. 

The 767 isn't that much bigger than a 707.  It's 6 feet longer, has a 10 
foot wider wingspan, and can carry 980 gallons more of fuel--which had 
been burned off by the time the plane took off and flew down to NYC from 
Boston.  (Ask Brad.) 

"Read My Lips!" to quote from the next presidential campaign:  I am not 
trying to "get" anybody.

I stand shoulder to shoulder with Herb, judging from his comments, and I 
would not deign to characterize his remarks as those of a zealot--either 
right or left.

I do not think Wally is "cold" because he is trying to think this 
problem through.

But I'm having a lot of trouble understanding where you are coming from.

We have a government that says whatever it thinks people want to hear, 
whether what they say makes any sense or not.  You say you think 2000 
people in Government screwed up, but not one of the people you ever 
voted for.  When your President propose a plan that clearly contradicts 
his own previous plans, you call me a zealot for pointing out the 
inconsistency?

W. has proposed throwing vast amounts of money in the direction of a 
group of notoriously corrupt politicians and businesses, using dollars 
that we don't have which his administration has said it would never spend.

What part of this plan do you agree with?

The rest of us are just scratching our heads from left to right, and 
then from right to left.  We all want to do the right thing.  But what 
is being proposed can't possibly work.  Probably won't happen.  And 
people's lives are going to be ruined by these decisions in all parts of 
the country, regardless of their political persuasion.

Don't just dash off attacks on people who you think disagree with you.  
I don't think Bush is evil.  Dumb, yes.  Evil, no.  Do you think what he 
is embarking on is smart?  Can you explain it to me in any terms?  I am 
truly listening.  And I think Herb is, too.  And Wally.  And Hank.  And 
Stan.  And Ben.  And Rummy.  And...

I'm done for now.

Bill Effros

PS -- From Science Friday, August 21, 1998:

The basement of Manhattan's World Trade Center and many of the 
businesses on Wall Street could see flooding by 2030, as could Newark 
International Airport in New Jersey. Large parts of Louisiana might be 
underwater.

michael meltzer wrote:

>which campaign was "here we go again", everything was
>not bush or is bush "evil prettified" wall street in
>not below sea level, or the rest of Manhattan, the
>world trade center area is fill (that how the port
>authority got the right, it came from one of their
>tunnels) but like all of Manhattan it is solid stone a
>few feet down, and very hard rock at that, that how
>they are able to build the skyscrapers, their is not
>"stills", it called a basement. 600 mile of tunnels
>would not have flooded, their more elevation in play
>than that, second most of the tunnels are cut from
>solid rock, and the system has flooded before, canal
>street was a canal. the towers were designed for a 707
>impact, the 767 has alto more gas and the fireproofing
>was remove because of abspeious problems(the plain
>impact did not do it, the metal melted). Bill out of
>chartictor, you are playing fast and loose and worst
>yet I could see you playing it either way just to get
>him, what make you better than any far right zealot,
>on in this case a far left zealot???????? I could keep
>going going but out of respect for you I stop, but
>bill this issue has you loosing touch, I give you an
>angogy here, "when someone come up you and says "you
>are drunk", it time to lay down", I think you are in
>the same boat, "Bill this is to close to you, you need
>to step back"   
>
>-mjm
>
>PS. please set you pc clock right, your email
>timestamps are off the wall
>--- Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Wally,
>>
>>Downtown Manhattan is below sea level.  Everything
>>is built on "stilts" 
>>that go down to the bedrock.  The "stilts" are not
>>exposed, the way they 
>>are in California mountain homes or barrier island
>>beach homes.  
>>Landfill covers the "stilts" and underground levees
>>protect them.
>>
>>The Hurricane did not breach the levee in New
>>Orleans, and the airplanes 
>>hitting the World Trade Center did not cause the
>>towers to collapse.  We 
>>here in New York were repeatedly told that the
>>Towers had been built to 
>>withstand collisions with airplanes.  Airplanes have
>>hit many buildings 
>>in New York with only localized damage.  Never,
>>until now, did a 
>>building of this size collapse as a result.  We are
>>told that the new 
>>buildings will be able to withstand an airplane
>>collision.
>>
>>We are also told that the Mississippi levees are
>>built in such a way 
>>that they will not be destroyed if they are
>>over-topped.  The Lake 
>>Ponchartrain levees could be rebuilt the same way.
>>
>>Bill Effros.
>>
>>Wally Buck wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>What an interesting discussion! Why didn't we
>>>>        
>>>>
>>have this discussion 
>>    
>>
>>>>after 9/11?
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Bill, Actually there was quite a bit of discussion
>>>      
>>>
>>about not 
>>    
>>
>>>rebuilding Twin Towers.
>>>
>>>The question is asked because much of the area is
>>>      
>>>
>>below sea level. 
>>    
>>
>>>Downtown Manahattan is not below sea level and
>>>      
>>>
>>flooding did not cause 
>>    
>>
>>>the Twin Towers to crash.
>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>>      
>>>
>>www.rhodes22.org/list
>>    
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>  
>