[Rhodes22-list] replying to Bob on epoxy additives #2

[Tootle]

Bob:

     Normally I would be trying to get to the original lines.  That said, I
would think on an older boat that is not as critical as insuring a repair
that will very strong.  If the damaged part is an inch or more, then without
question you should use glass cloth to make a stronger repair.  They do make
glass repair tapes, but I have not used and at present do not know widths.

	In books and technical literature they say that Colloidal Silica is a flat
particle and when used in epoxy mixtures lays flat and works like shingles
to make a water barrier.

	I think that Evercoat Kitty Hair and West Marine Structural filler are the
same product, but I do not know that for fact.  Both are vinyl ester
products which are a waterproof material.  The extra long fibers make the
stuff strong.  A couple of top end boat makers use vinyl ester resin to make
their boats because it is water resistant and more flexible than epoxy.  It
is more hazardous to use.

	In conclusion, I would use glass cloth with the epoxy if you have room in
the pin slot.  I would use glass cloth or tape on seam repairs.  Remember
that epoxy can stick to wax paper. 

	Technical reference:   http://www.epoxyworks.com/indexprojects.html  go to
Fiberglass Boat Repair and Restoration

Ed K
Greenville, SC, USA




bobmellor wrote:
> 
> Ed
> 
> As I indicated, I am learning as I go and greatly appreciate all advice.. 
> I understand how a longer fiber might provide an even stronger result, but
> I have never seen colloidal silica filler referred to as a waterproofing
> additive (unless you are referring to it altering viscosity without
> altering permeability as microballons would).    I was of the impression
> that slow cure epoxy is pretty waterproof on its own.  Everything I have
> found refers to colloidal silica/fumed silica/ capisil/ cab-o-sil,
> whatever, as a strong filler recommneded for thickening, bonding, and for
> filling gaps and holes.  I agree that it cures to a VERY hard and is very
> difficult to fair once cured..
> 
> In my case I used it as a gap filler for the bottom trunk/hull joint, then
> as a thickener to apply glass tape on the vertical surfaces.  The thing I
> am nervous about is having using it to repair the trunk pin slot wilthout
> any additional glass reeinforcment.  Would you recommend overlaying the
> repaired slot some with some resin and boaxial cloth?
> 
> I think I'll pick up some kitty hair for future use.
> 
> again, appreciate any and all input.
> 
> bob m
> 
> BYW, bob replied silica, not silca  :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tootle wrote:
>> 
>> David asked:
>> "Which additive did you use to thicken it?"
>> Bob replied:
>> colloidal silca...
>> 
>> The colloidal silca is a water proofing additive.  For strength add
>> Evercoat's "Kitty Hair" See:
>> http://www.evercoat.com/productDetail.aspx?pID=38
>> West System glass is very short fibers - that is 1/4" - good for filling
>> holes and thickening.  Whereas Kitty hair is 1" to 2" for structural
>> strength.
>> 
>> Alternatively go to West Marine and get their structural filler.  It is a
>> vinyl ester product with long glass strands and sticks like dog shit on
>> shoes.  The structural filler needs a fairing compound for smooth finish. 
>> That is where the colloidal silca layer would add waterproofing.  Keep in
>> mind that epoxy thickened with colloidal silca is very hard and hard to
>> fair.  For easy fairing use the micro balloons additive knowing that they
>> are not waterproof, so would need a water proofing primer.
>> 
>> Ed K
>> Greenville, SC, USA
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> bobmellor wrote:
>>> 
>>> David
>>> 
>>> I used west system epoxy, with their colloidal silica filler for
>>> thickening and added strength .. 
>>> 
>>> Regarding the seam on the other side of the trunk, mine also looks ok,
>>> but i think as long as I'm at it I will expose that seam as well just to
>>> be sure.....   may end up a waste of time, but I only want to do this
>>> once.
>>> 
>>> Fun and games....
>>> 
>>> Bob M
>>> 
>>> 
>>> David Culp wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks Bob:
>>>> 
>>>> Sounds like the exact same seal issue with my boat.  However, my bilge
>>>> and
>>>> ballast appear to be in very fine shape, so much so that once out of
>>>> the
>>>> water, the remaining bilge water would not flow out through the
>>>> entrance
>>>> spot. I ended up having to sponge out the bilge because the water
>>>> wouldn't
>>>> drain.  Still, I did locate the loose spot on the bottom hull so I know
>>>> where to start looking.
>>>> 
>>>> I have the same Don Casey books and have done some glass work on boats
>>>> before which turned out pretty good; but as you say, it's hard to get
>>>> to and
>>>> work on it sitting on the trailer.  Where as the shop can lift it up in
>>>> a
>>>> sling, in a nice warm warehouse and walk underneath it with nice tools
>>>> ideally suited to the purpose.  I have half a mind to go ahead and just
>>>> expose the whole seam all the way around the trunk and make sure that I
>>>> don't have separation in other places, but on the other hand why go
>>>> looking
>>>> for trouble that probably isn't there and paying more?  Thoughts on
>>>> this?
>>>> 
>>>> Apparently, it is a slow process until finally the water finds a path
>>>> through the glass as it breaks down, then it just flows in and out.
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe if I go all the way around the area of the seal and do a very
>>>> thorough
>>>> visual inspection, looking for any evidence and tapping for dead spots
>>>> that
>>>> would be enough.  Like Rummy said, maybe a previous owner grounded it
>>>> hard
>>>> and pulled something loose in just this one area.  Anyway, you said you
>>>> used
>>>> thickened epoxy.  Which additive did you use to thicken it?  Sounds
>>>> like
>>>> yours is fixed and I want to do this one in the same way.
>>>> 
>>>> By the way, Rummy, I'm in Texas near Austin on Lake LBJ.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> David
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:38:10 -0800 (PST)
>>>> From: bobmellor <rhmello at aol.com>
>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Bilge Water and A "racing" Rhodes (and a
>>>>        questioon for Rummy)
>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>> Message-ID: <7693629.post at talk.nabble.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> David...
>>>> 
>>>> I had the some issues with my well used '80 I bought this past spring. 
>>>> Both
>>>> a leaking cap (there was no gasket at all, just sealant of some type
>>>> that
>>>> time had turned to slime) and leaks where the trunk was joined to the
>>>> hull
>>>> at the bottom.
>>>> 
>>>> As Stan said, the clue is watching where the water comes out, not in. 
>>>> In my
>>>> case, when I pulled the boat out of the water, the bilge drained
>>>> completely,
>>>> indicating it was more than just the cap gasket (which should have left
>>>> water in the bilge up to the top of the trunk).  The leaky seam area
>>>> stayed
>>>> wet and dripping much longer that the rest of the hull..  Probing the
>>>> wet
>>>> area showed the "wallpaper peel" -  much more obvious when it is wet
>>>> than
>>>> when dry.
>>>> 
>>>> I first removed the cap, cleaned everything well, re-sealed the pennant
>>>> hose
>>>> fitting, replaced all hardware, replaced the rope, pennant hose and
>>>> clamp
>>>> and put it back on with a gasket kit I got from Stan.
>>>> 
>>>> "Wallpaper that has come loose from the wall" is an excellent
>>>> description of
>>>> the bottom leak.  Peeling the edge of the "wallpaper" back began to
>>>> reveal
>>>> spots where the seam between the trunk and hull were open 1/8th of an
>>>> inch
>>>> or more, allowing water to flow in and out of the hull pretty freely. 
>>>> I let
>>>> it dry out, then ground out all along and inside the edges of the open
>>>> seams.  I forced thickened epoxy in the openings as I could, then added
>>>> a
>>>> couple of layers of glass tape and epoxy along the seams.
>>>> 
>>>> (one very helpfull hint.. if doing epoxy work laying on your back under
>>>> a
>>>> trailered boat make sure you don't rest the back of your head in
>>>> whatever
>>>> you have the uncured epoxy in (such as a plastic picnic plate)... BIG
>>>> mistake.)
>>>> 
>>>> Lastly, Inside the hull, I replaced some disintegrated concrete around
>>>> the
>>>> trunk, let it dry, and sealed that area all up with some epoxy and
>>>> glass.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm learning as I go (with a lot of help from this info on this list,
>>>> West
>>>> System epoxy guides, and Don Casey's books).  But so far limited
>>>> in-water
>>>> testing has shown the bilge to remain dry as a bone.
>>>> 
>>>> Before I paint in spring, i will need to make sure everything is
>>>> completey
>>>> dry...
>>>> 
>>>> Takes a bit bit of work, but you can get it sealed up.
>>>> 
>>>> (rummy... seems that have experience with this issue...  any
>>>> suggestions or
>>>> additional work I should do before i finish it all up?  I for sure do
>>>> not
>>>> want to have to do this again.)
>>>> 
>>>> Bob Mellor
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> David Culp wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the background information Stan:
>>>>>
>>>>> What you say makes perfect sense and I will put water back in the
>>>>> bilge if
>>>>> it becomes necessary to locate the leak again.  In the meantime,
>>>>> further
>>>>> information will shed more light and perhaps help others in the
>>>>> future.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, this boat was in the water for 2 years without being pulled by
>>>>> the
>>>>> previous owner.  Before purchase, a professional, underwater survey
>>>>> was
>>>>> done
>>>>> in an attempt to assess the condition of the bottom hull.  The report
>>>>> found
>>>>> that the hull was in good condition for the most part with the
>>>>> existence
>>>>> of
>>>>> 5 small blisters.  After purchase, I had the bottom inspected again
>>>>> and
>>>>> repainted of course.  The inspection revealed 5 small blisters and in
>>>>> addition, 20 very tiny ones.   All were easily ground out and
>>>>> repaired.
>>>>> The
>>>>> shop personnel told me that this was absolutely nothing to worry about
>>>>> and
>>>>> things were generally in good shape. However, they did point out that
>>>>> the
>>>>> seal area on the port side of the trunk where it appeared that some
>>>>> blistering had taken place was a concern and they attempted to do
>>>>> something
>>>>> about it.  In other words, a lot of grinding was done in the area of
>>>>> the
>>>>> trunk seal and it was resealed.  At least, we thought we got it. 
>>>>> Maybe we
>>>>> didn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> After finding water flowing into the bilge, I pulled the boat and
>>>>> yesterday
>>>>> was able to get underneath and do a thorough inspection of the suspect
>>>>> area.  I have found in that same area on the bottom of the hull that
>>>>> looks
>>>>> absolutely normal by the way, that when you run your fingers across
>>>>> it, it
>>>>> feels just like wallpaper that has come loose from a wall.   The area
>>>>> is
>>>>> not
>>>>> right up against the trunk, but if memory serves me, it is this same
>>>>> area
>>>>> of
>>>>> concern in the seal area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps I am naive, but I am not overly concerned about this.   As
>>>>> Stan
>>>>> says, I believe some " dental work" is all that is necessary to fix
>>>>> this.
>>>>> For whatever reason, I have some de-lamination in the seal area and it
>>>>> will
>>>>> have to be repaired.   I'll make sure that we take a very close look
>>>>> at
>>>>> the
>>>>> whole trunk seal area to make sure it's not happening in other areas.
>>>>>
>>>>> The lessons for me from this reinforce what I have always thought:
>>>>>
>>>>> Periodically inspect the bilge for water.  I look in there after every
>>>>> sail.  Stan made it easy to do and I was on top of this problem right
>>>>> away.
>>>>>
>>>>> No matter how wonderful you think your bottom job is, the boat should
>>>>> be
>>>>> pulled at least once a year, the hull cleaned and inspected even if
>>>>> you
>>>>> just
>>>>> do it yourself.  Again, Stan has made taking the boat in and out of
>>>>> the
>>>>> water easy so there is no excuse not to. I found this problem by just
>>>>> running my hands over the hull.  Tapping around with a blunt object
>>>>> looking
>>>>> for dead spots is effective also, I'm told.  I would also take this
>>>>> opportunity to lower the mast and examine the shrouds, stays and the
>>>>> other
>>>>> structural hardware to insure its integrity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, I have found that when my sailboat is in the water, I am only
>>>>> interested in one thing-sailing!  When it's on the trailer, then I can
>>>>> discipline myself to look around and fix the little things. I will be
>>>>> doing
>>>>> this while the boat is out this time.  I am also going to pull the
>>>>> sails
>>>>> off
>>>>> and send them to Sail Care to be refurbished.
>>>>>
>>>>> So looking at the silver-lining, at least I got a good summer out of
>>>>> it
>>>>> and
>>>>> won't miss much with the boat out of water for the winter.  It needed
>>>>> to
>>>>> come out anyway so the sails could go to Sail Care.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stan, I would love to buy a new boat from you.  Unfortunately, my
>>>>> budget
>>>>> doesn't allow it at present.  However, how are you coming with the
>>>>> "racing"
>>>>> version?  I love my boat as it is, but I have to admit it would be fun
>>>>> to
>>>>> have it set up more like a racer.  I took a bunch of stuff out of the
>>>>> boat
>>>>> to expose the trunk including some wood structure to trouble-shoot
>>>>> this
>>>>> problem.  This reduced the weight and then we sailed it over to the
>>>>> ramp
>>>>> to
>>>>> take it out.   Wow, this is potentially a very fast boat!  I could
>>>>> really
>>>>> tell the difference even by just the small amount of weight that I had
>>>>> taken
>>>>> out.  I can only imagine how much fun it would be if you really
>>>>> stripped
>>>>> it
>>>>> down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to Stan and everyone and I will let the list know what the
>>>>> final
>>>>> verdict is when we open it up.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 07:47:05 -0500
>>>>> From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Bilge Water
>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <005b01c71610$11189520$f76cf4cd at rhodes>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>>        reply-type=response
>>>>>
>>>>> David,
>>>>>
>>>>> You cannot determine a leak by seeing where water is coming from
>>>>> inside
>>>>> the
>>>>> boat.  A mistake many make - forget it.   The few exceptions are: any
>>>>> water
>>>>> oozing out around the cb trunk/cap neoprene gasket or around any thru
>>>>> hull
>>>>> fittings.
>>>>>
>>>>> Leaks through the fiberglass hull are extremely rare.
>>>>> The only ones I have ever seen are where someone had inadvertently
>>>>> drilled
>>>>> a
>>>>> hull through the glass.
>>>>>
>>>>> In older boats (ones where we had the hulls built by contractors) we
>>>>> have
>>>>> found some faults in the sealing of the centerboard trunk (a separate
>>>>> molded
>>>>> entity) into the bottom of the keel (which is part of the fiberglass
>>>>> hull
>>>>> lay-up).   The positive way to determine if this is the source of a
>>>>> leak
>>>>> is
>>>>> to put water into the boat and see if any water leaves the boat at
>>>>> this
>>>>> joint seam around the bottom of the cb slot in the keel. If this is
>>>>> the
>>>>> cause of a leak, where water actually leaves the hull (not where it
>>>>> runs
>>>>> along the hull and finally drops off) is the fault area.  If this is
>>>>> the
>>>>> problem location, a dentist can fix it.  Drill out the problem area
>>>>> and
>>>>> fill
>>>>> it with an epoxy such as Marine Tex or others.   A water test by
>>>>> putting
>>>>> water back inside the boat will show whether the epoxy filling has
>>>>> stopped
>>>>> that particular leak area.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as we know, none of the boats that have had their cb trunks
>>>>> installed
>>>>> at our plant have ever leaked, not that we are suggesting you buy a
>>>>> new
>>>>> one
>>>>> of course....
>>>>>
>>>>> You can call me if you want to go over this.
>>>>>
>>>>> stan/gbi.
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> --
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>>>> .
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

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