[Rhodes22-list] A Kite and a Brick
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Fri Jan 13 15:04:34 EST 2006
Peter,
I'll be away from my desk for 24 hours, and busy upon my return. I'll
get back to this as soon as I can.
Bill Effros
Peter Thorn wrote:
>Bill,
>
>More precisely, how does one set the anchor in a 5 knot current? (I can
>only imagine wanting to do this in an emergency situation and I like to be
>ready for anything, so I'm glad you know how to do this -- please tell us
>all). With all the water moving over the bottom at a pretty good speed, how
>can you get an anchor to slow down long enough to set (in any kind of
>bottom)?
>
>As maneuvering goes, that is subject to boatspeed through the water. Think
>of current like pulling a table cloth across the tabletop -- everything
>moves together and, if you have boatspeed relative to the water
>(tablecloth), your rudder will provide steerage.
>
>------------------------
>
>Forgetabout the lunch hook stuff. All the anchoring discussion you started
>has got me thinking about anchoring in very adverse conditions: let's call
>it Extreme Anchoring. Suppose one is caught out in the middle of the
>Pamilco or Chesapeake over a soft muddy bottom and a summer squall with
>50-60 knot winds comes along. What size anchor would you need then?
>
>The Fortress website charts would suggest some pretty hefty equipment. All
>engineers I know like to round up for safety: 20' is too small, so next up
>is 25' boat, 60 knots wind = 1,960#s load. Soft mud bottom (45 degree
>Fortress flukes = FX-23!!! That's a 36" shank anchor normally sized for a
>39-45' boat! But, that's what they say it would take to hold a 25' boat in
>a muddy bottom against 60 knots wind.
>
>I just hate consulting with a lawyer for advice, paying by the hour, and it
>seems they always say "It depends...". Well, anchoring is like that too,
>right?
>
>PT
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] A Kite and a Brick
>
>
>
>
>>Peter,
>>
>>I would never anchor in a 5 knot current, even though I know how to do
>>so. All boats are moving fast and out of control in 5 knots currents.
>>They can't steer unless they are doing more than 5 knots, and absent an
>>anchor, they can't stop to less than 5 knots which is the minimum speed
>>they will be doing when they smack into you and your anchor.
>>
>>In 1 to 2 knot currents (which I anchor in all the time) you just float
>>on the current and drop your anchor. You don't realize you are moving,
>>but your GPS keeps telling you that your position is changing. Your
>>anchor hits the bottom, you pay out line, you snub off the line, the
>>anchor sets, and suddenly you see the current passing you by, while your
>>GPS informs you that you are no longer drifting.
>>
>>Bill Effros
>>
>>Peter Thorn wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Bill,
>>>
>>>Very interesting and thoughtful, and it's clear you have been obsessing
>>>about anchoring. What would you do in a 5 knot current?
>>>
>>>PT
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 10:50 AM
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] A Kite and a Brick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Rik,
>>>>
>>>>Let's call "flying anchor syndrome" "kiting". Michael also spoke of
>>>>kite strings and bricks.
>>>>
>>>>When you anchor a boat, the boat is supposed to be the kite, and the
>>>>anchor the brick.
>>>>
>>>>In one of my posts I mentioned the importance of letting out the line
>>>>faster than you are traveling so that there is slack anchor rode
>>>>floating on top of the water while the metal anchor heads straight for
>>>>the bottom. This is critical when anchoring. Failure to execute this
>>>>properly results in "kiting" where the anchor becomes the kite, and the
>>>>boat becomes the brick.
>>>>
>>>>There is a popular misconception that "kiting" happens more with a
>>>>Danforth anchor than any other type. I suppose this is because the
>>>>flukes resemble the wings of a jet fighter. But in actual point of
>>>>fact, a cinder block will kite if you don't put out the rode fast
>>>>
>>>>
>enough.
>
>
>>>>To the extent that there is a trick to proper anchoring, the trick is to
>>>>stop the boat before dropping the anchor. If you do this, all the
>>>>physics works in your favor. You set the anchor, set the rode, and the
>>>>anchor will remain where you put it until you release it.
>>>>
>>>>The notion of stopping a boat traveling at 5 kts. by throwing an anchor
>>>>overboard is another popular misconception. At that speed, the boat is
>>>>traveling somewhere around 10 feet a second. You must let out the rode
>>>>faster than 10 feet a second to prevent the anchor from kiting. It
>>>>doesn't matter how heavy the anchor is--if you fail to let out the road
>>>>faster than you are traveling, the anchor becomes the kite, and the boat
>>>>is the brick.
>>>>
>>>>But let's say that instead of dealing with your problem, you have
>>>>decided to throw an anchor overboard, and you are able to release the
>>>>rode at a rate of more than 10 feet per second. 10 to 15 seconds after
>>>>you hear the splash of your anchor you will face a new problem--"What
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Now?"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Nobody drops a bow anchor from a boat traveling at 5 knots--it's just
>>>>too dumb--the anchor is going to hit hull of the boat, foul the rudder,
>>>>wrap around the prop--even in a panic you don't do that. Not to mention
>>>>the fact that you're in the stern, and you can't get to the bow and
>>>>release the anchor anyhow.
>>>>
>>>>So you must be thinking of dropping the anchor from the stern. If your
>>>>stern anchor is like mine, the bitter end of the rode isn't attached to
>>>>anything substantial. Line is paying out like crazy. You believe your
>>>>anchor is on the bottom--and you've got just a split second to decide if
>>>>you're going to grab the end of the line and try to stop your 3000 pound
>>>>+ boat, which is hurtling forward out of control at greater than 5
>>>>knots, using only your body...
>>>>
>>>>I hope you remember the crushing force of your boat against a dock at
>>>>less than one knot if you ever face this situation.
>>>>
>>>>Let the anchor and rode go, and deal with your problem.
>>>>
>>>>If you are sailing, turn the boat into the wind to stop it. Then drop
>>>>another anchor, set it, and figure out what you're going to do next. If
>>>>you are motoring, steer your way out of the problem, stop the boat, drop
>>>>an anchor. Figure out what to do next.
>>>>
>>>>It is important to know before a situation arises that throwing an
>>>>anchor overboard--no matter what type or size of anchor--when you are in
>>>>trouble, is a bad strategy for stopping a boat. Stop the boat first.
>>>>Then anchor.
>>>>
>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Rik Sandberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Bill,
>>>>>
>>>>>MJM's point about the anchor "not sinking" was not in relation to a
>>>>>stationary boat, but a moving boat. Perhaps you need to tune up your
>>>>>decoder ring and read his post again.
>>>>>
>>>>>I have more than once experienced this *flying anchor syndrone* when
>>>>>using a danforth with little or no chain and trying to set an anchor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>from a boat that has not stopped yet. MJM's point here was that if you
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>can't get the anchor to go to the bottom from a *moving* boat, it has
>>>>>no chance to stop you in an emergency situation, ie keep you off the
>>>>>shore, rocks, whatever.....
>>>>>
>>>>>Myself, I will continue to use at least a boat lenth of chain,
>>>>>ESPECIALLY with a danforth style anchor, and not only for the reason I
>>>>>have stated above.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rik
>>>>>
>>>>>Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>=====
>>>>>>" People do passionately believe that they must add weight to their
>>>>>>metal anchors to make them sink, and that that is the reason for
>>>>>>adding chain."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know anyone that believes that. You may, and I would agree
>>>>>>with you that their position is wrong. Everyone I've ever talked to
>>>>>>about this, and everything I've ever read, talks about the weight of
>>>>>>the chain changing the angle of pull, as well as acting as a buffer
>>>>>>for the tension of the rode.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=====
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"PS -- The "putting your life on the line" comments are also straw
>>>>>>man attacks. That's just silly stuff. Many cruisers have all line
>>>>>>rodes. I'll get to that later."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I couldn't disagree with you more. I qualified my statement by saying
>>>>>>"someone new to sailing", as well as "may be". I stand by that. Of
>>>>>>course it's silly if your correct, and an all rope rode is every bit
>>>>>>as effective as chain, and there is no advantage with chain. I don't
>>>>>>know whether that's true or not. However, if it's NOT true, and
>>>>>>someone new to sailing follows your advice, anchors in mud, gets a
>>>>>>poor set because they didn't use chain (again, this is predicated on
>>>>>>the assumption that chain is needed for the set) and ends up on the
>>>>>>rocks while they're asleep in the v-berth, then they would very much
>>>>>>be placing their boat and their lives on the line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Besides all that, it's NOT a "straw-man" attack, because I didn't
>>>>>>mis-state your position and attack that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=====
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"please comment; your actual experiences are as valuable to me as I
>>>>>>hope mine will be to you."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My actual experiences are so limited as to be almost useless. I've
>>>>>>anchored my O'Day 25 4 or 5 times in the same lake, for no more than
>>>>>>3 hours at a time, with a combo chain/rope rode. Every time, the
>>>>>>anchor set, and the boat held. I anchored one time over night on the
>>>>>>same boat, same Danforth style anchor, in the ICW off the coast of
>>>>>>Texas using the same set technique. The set held.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I crew on a race boat, and last July 4th, all the racers held a get
>>>>>>together. Our skipper set the anchor with his all rope rode, and it
>>>>>>didn't hold. He said he had done it before with no problem (but being
>>>>>>honest, he's prideful enough that he wouldn't have admitted had it
>>>>>>not been true), and he tried three times to set the anchor. It never
>>>>>>properly set. I watched him, and I couldn't see anything he was doing
>>>>>>differently than me. He attributed it to luck of the draw, stated
>>>>>>that he must have hit rocky bottom each time :). Same style anchor
>>>>>>(though a little smaller, but also a smaller boat), same lake,
>>>>>>different skipper, different rode, different results. Too many
>>>>>>variables to come to any real conclusion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The one time I took my Coronado 35 project boat out, I foolishly
>>>>>>failed to check the anchor before I left. The diesel quit on me, and
>>>>>>I went below and grabbed the anchor. There was no rode attached (
>>>>>>c'mon now, I admitted I did a foolish thing). I gathered every dock
>>>>>>line I could find, and tied them together and tied it to the anchor.
>>>>>>Set it the way I "normally" do (in my limited experience). Lake
>>>>>>Pontchartrain is only about 15' deep in that area, but has a VERY
>>>>>>muddy/silty bottom. The anchor set, but the boat was drifting. The
>>>>>>Coronado has a VERY high freeboard area, so it's more easily affected
>>>>>>by wind than my O'Day (and it's almost always a windy day on Lake
>>>>>>Pontchartrain). The I-10 overpass was looking frighteningly close and
>>>>>>getting closer. In spite of that, I was so afraid of drifting even
>>>>>>faster if I pulled anchor, that I kept what I had, let it slowly
>>>>>>slip, while my wife watched and I worked on the motor. I got the
>>>>>>motor started before we hit the bridge, pulled anchor, and chewed
>>>>>>myself out in front of my wife :). Different boat, different bottom
>>>>>>conditions, but an all rope rode as opposed to chain/rope combo.
>>>>>>Again, too many variables to come to any real conclusion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's my total anchoring experience. Not much to go on, but in my
>>>>>>limited experience, and it IS VERY "limited", I've never come out of
>>>>>>a chain/rope situation shaking and scared, half the time that I've
>>>>>>had an all rope rode experience I was shook up, and the other half I
>>>>>>was amused and irritated at the same time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't think you're going to be successful at convincing me that I
>>>>>>should give up the chain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Herb Parsons
>>>>>>
>>>>>>S/V O'Jure
>>>>>>1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>>Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>>
>>>>>>S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>>1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>>Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>bill at effros.com 1/12/2006 10:24:09 am >>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Herb,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I understand your point, and will respond to it in Dave's following
>>>>>>memo. I am not the one who raised the "straw man" argument regarding
>>>>>>"helper metal" (although that term is mine, it does accurately
>>>>>>reflect the thrust of the argument advanced by others.) People do
>>>>>>passionately believe that they must add weight to their metal anchors
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>to make them sink, and that that is the reason for adding chain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This anchoring thing is so tied up with myths passed along by people
>>>>>>like you and me who have never anchored a whole lot, but who are good
>>>>>>readers. We pass along the comments of others--who may not have
>>>>>>anchored a whole lot either. I really did spend a lot of time in
>>>>>>non-critical situations testing the theories that have been passed
>>>>>>down to us. If I put the whole analysis into a single lengthy email
>>>>>>everyone would hit the delete button when they got to something they
>>>>>>didn't agree with, and that would be the end of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Instead, I am going to break it down to individual points, and we can
>>>>>>debate them based on what we have all read and experienced. I will
>>>>>>say over and over that my experience is limited to sand/clay/mud/muck
>>>>>>bottoms which are probably what most of us (but not all) sail in. I
>>>>>>can anchor in rocks, but I don't know if it's the same as anchoring
>>>>>>off the Maine coast. I don't think anyone should anchor on coral.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>More to come; please comment; your actual experiences are as valuable
>>>>>>to me as I hope mine will be to you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>>>
>>>>>>PS -- The "putting your life on the line" comments are also straw man
>>>>>>attacks. That's just silly stuff. Many cruisers have all line
>>>>>>rodes. I'll get to that later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bill,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You're doing what I see a lot of people do when they try to argue a
>>>>>>>point that they believe passionately about - you're mis-stating your
>>>>>>>"opposition's" position, then attacking that position. It's called a
>>>>>>>straw-man attack.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No one believes for a minute that an anchor needs "helper metal" to
>>>>>>>sink. However, there can be an argument made that Danforth style and
>>>>>>>Bruce style anchors are designed to be set by being pulled at a
>>>>>>>certain angle. Even by your own admission and description of how you
>>>>>>>use your anchoring system, an all rope rode would pull the anchor at
>>>>>>>a different angle than a chain rode would. Or at least, it would if
>>>>>>>the two systems were of equal length.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now, I don't anchor my boat often enough to really have much input
>>>>>>>on this one. Because I don't anchor my boat very often, I choose to
>>>>>>>go with the widely accepted practice of using chain for my system.
>>>>>>>You may very well be right in your assessment, but please don't
>>>>>>>obfuscate the debate by inserting nonsense like below. Keep in mind
>>>>>>>that if someone new to sailing believes what you're saying, and acts
>>>>>>>on it, they are then possibly putting their boat, and even their
>>>>>>>lives, on the line. That alone means the discussion is worthy of
>>>>>>>real discussion, not nonsense like "metal doesn't need help sinking,
>>>>>>>if you don't believe me try this experiment..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Herb Parsons
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>S/V O'Jure
>>>>>>>1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>>>Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>>>1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>>>Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>bill at effros.com 1/12/2006 8:40:27 am >>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All metal anchors sink. No metal anchor requires "helper metal" in
>>>>>>>the form of chain to drag it down to the bottom. Anyone who
>>>>>>>seriously doubts this should try this little experiment: Remove
>>>>>>>your anchor from your chain rode, and throw the anchor overboard.
>>>>>>>If it floats, be sure to take a picture--there could be a Nobel
>>>>>>>Prize in your future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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