[Rhodes22-list] This Is Not A Waste Of Your Time

[Brad Haslett]

Bill,

There are no easy answers on this one.  Frankly, if people want to build on
a barrier island, swamp, mountainside, etc., I think they should do so at
their own risk.  FEMA should show up and rescue the dead, provide immediate
necessities to the living, and leave town in the aftermath of a calamity.
New Orleans is a different situation since the Federal government took over
the levee system in 1927 and they are the culprits for the failure.
Twenty-five billion to move everyone to high ground sounds cheap.  The
numbers I've read on rebuilding the levee system to take a direct hit have
ranged from 20 to 100 billion. And that is just the levees. This project
will take years and where will people live in the meantime? There's more to
restoring flooded NOLA than just levees though.  The whole infrastructure,
above and below ground needs rebuilding as well, no easy task given the soil
and the elevations.  I'm not sure this will pass a simple cost/benefit
analysis but then the decision will probably be a political one, not a
rational one.  Another  issue is the risk of terrorism, both home grown and
foreign.  The City of New Orleans blew up the levees during the great flood
of 1927 to keep the city from being landlocked.  This is not theory.  Anyone
can understand why citizens question all the money spent in Florida.  It
makes me angry as well.  I agree with you, if we're going to do this, let's
do it right.  Now what is it we're going to do?

Brad


On 6/26/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>
> Brad,
>
> New Orleans is there and will remain there because it is a port at the
> last buildable location on the Mississippi river--it has nothing to do
> with social issues and sentimentalism.  It will be rebuilt because we
> need the port for both commerce and defense.
>
> The people of New Orleans are not asking for communities on the moon or
> undersea.  They are asking why Florida, which is also hurricane prone
> and built on a swamp, gets immediate massive aid to rebuild, even when
> hit by successive hurricanes in the same place, in the same year; while
> they are left with a mess and told to move elsewhere.  They are asking
> why the government keeps shipping sand, at massive cost, to "protect"
> multimillion dollar condos built too close to the water on barrier
> islands surrounding the US, while people keep asking why they build
> their homes where they work, nowhere near the water's edge.
>
> These people have no place to go.  Nobody wants them.  Their life
> savings were tied up in their homes.  Nobody is really talking about
> giving each of them $200,000 so they can buy homes elsewhere.  That
> solution would run in the $25 billion range.  Somebody finally started
> doing some math on this, and figured it would cost a lot less to rebuild
> the levees, and help these people rebuild their homes.
>
> That's what they're going to do.  Let's build them right this time.
> There's no excuse for the shoddy work done previously.
>
> Bill Effros
>
>
>
> Brad Haslett wrote:
> > Bill,
> >
> > One of the reasons we've stayed out of NOLA is that the soil 90 miles
> > east
> > is tricky enough.  It has been a whole new learning curve for us.  We
> > know
> > Illinois clay and Tennessee limestone, but nothing prepared us for gulf
> > soils.  At high tide the water table rises to within two feet of the
> > surface.  Nothing compacts.  Fill has to be hauled in from miles away
> and
> > the price keeps going up.  Rock comes from barges down the Tom-Bigbee
> > from
> > as far away as Kentucky.  You find us a good clay pit near NOLA and
> we'll
> > make Buffet and Gates look like pikers.  I'm not emotionally attached
> > to New
> > Orleans but I feel their pain.  I really do.  We no doubt can build
> > communities on the moon and undersea as well, but at what cost?
> > Remove the
> > social issues from NOLA, and the sentimentalism, and just look at the
> > engineering nightmares, you have to ask, is it really worth it?
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >
> > On 6/25/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Herb,
> >>
> >> That was my meaning.  Of course the hurricane hit, but most people
> would
> >> have recovered from that over time
> >>
> >> There are thousands of houses still standing that look not so different
> >> from the way they looked before the flooding except that they are
> >> rotting away from the inside.  New Orleans was always notorious for its
> >> lack of infrastructure, but the lack of electricity in whole swaths of
> >> the city, 9 months after the hurricane hit is unimaginable.  Traffic
> >> lights were still out.   Whole sections of town go totally dark at
> >> night.
> >>
> >> Also, flood damage of biblical proportions in an urban area has a
> >> different look from the hurricane damage.  You can see that huge
> objects
> >> simply floated into and onto each other at heights that don't seem
> >> possible.
> >>
> >> I've seen hurricanes and tornadoes, and I know how people can dig their
> >> way out and rebuild.  This is different.
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Herb Parsons wrote:
> >> > Bill, I agree in principle with much of what you wrote, except that
> >> last
> >> statement.
> >> >
> >> > "The hurricane missed New Orleans for all intents and purposes."
> >> >
> >> > Nothing could be further from the truth. The homes in east NO look
> >> like
> >> the homes in any other hurricane ravaged city. But, you're not
> >> particularly
> >> worried about fixing your roof when you've had 6 feet of water in
> >> your home
> >> that finished off any hopes of recovery.
> >> >
> >> > Herb Parsons
> >> >
> >> > S/V O'Jure
> >> > 1976 O'Day 25
> >> > Lake Grapevine, N TX
> >> >
> >> > S/V Reve de Papa
> >> > 1971 Coronado 35
> >> > Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>>> bill at effros.com 6/25/2006 8:47:16 am >>>
> >> >>>>
> >> > Brad,
> >> >
> >> > If the levees are built properly, 3 feet of elevation is all they
> >> need.
> >> > I think they are moving it up to 6, but it makes no difference if you
> >> > allow the lake to overflow the land.  There is no way to pump the
> >> water
> >> > back out, and the depths reach 10 to 20 feet.  The natural problems
> >> are
> >> > well understood.  There will be hurricane damage to water front
> >> property
> >> > sometimes.  But if the government cuts canals into the heart of a
> city
> >> > it has a responsibility to build the canals to its own
> specifications,
> >> > or fill them in.
> >> >
> >> > These are lower middle class people, black and white.  They can't
> >> afford
> >> > to build homes that cost 1 1/2 times what they would cost if they
> >> didn't
> >> > have to worry about levee failures.  How high off the ground should
> >> > people sitting below Grand Coulee Dam build their houses?
> >> >
> >> > The New Orleans situation is fundamentally different from the
> >> > Mississippi situation, and the people of New Orleans have had trouble
> >> > making this point.  What you are seeing in Mississippi is primarily
> >> > hurricane damage.  In New Orleans it is primarily flood damage
> >> caused by
> >> > the failure of government built levees.  The hurricane missed New
> >> > Orleans for all intents and purposes.
> >> >
> >> > Bill Effros
> >> >
> >> > Brad Haslett wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Bill,
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> From the get-go I said the new rule for real estate on the gulf
> >> would
> >> be
> >> >>>
> >> >> elevation, elevation, elevation.  That is rapidly becoming true
> >> >> unless you're talking high-rise commercial construction with the
> >> first
> >> >> three
> >> >> floors a parking garage.  We toyed with the idea of building
> >> houses and
> >> >> quickly decided it wasn't our area of expertise, and, we couldn't
> >> feed
> >> >> the
> >> >> beast we'd already started.  That being said, I had several
> >> conversations
> >> >> with a concrete home architect from Florida.  He designs homes using
> >> SIPS
> >> >> (structurally insulated panels) using concrete board instead of OSB
> >> >> (orientated strand board).  We discussed at length the problems of
> >> >> elevation
> >> >> and flooding and I agree with his thinking.  You have to build with
> >> >> the idea
> >> >> that you're going to take a bath now and then.  It is easy to take
> >> the
> >> >> wind
> >> >> hit and survive some water, not so easy to fight the mold.  It can
> be
> >> >> done,
> >> >> but not with conventional stick building, insulation, and
> >> flooring.  If
> >> >> lower elevation NOLA is rebuilt (I don't have a dog in that hunt)
> >> they
> >> >> either need to spend billions and billions on bigger and better
> >> levees
> >> or
> >> >> design the houses to take a bath and dry out.  Or, do what the
> >> >> Mississippi
> >> >> Gulf did after Camille and rebuild just like it was and wonder "what
> >> the
> >> >> hell just happened?" 36 years later.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks for the pics.
> >> >>
> >> >> Brad
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 6/24/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Thanks, Brad,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> We took the same drive 4 months later.  The flood damage is
> >> >>> heartbreaking, and comprises 95% of the total damage.  In other
> >> wards
> >> >>> the houses are still standing, but they are rotting from the inside
> >> >>> out.  The lower 9th ward is not physically lower than most of the
> >> rest
> >> >>> of New Orleans.  We followed the water as it swept toward the
> >> >>> Mississippi.  Homes that had 4 feet of standing water for 3 months
> >> were
> >> >>> just as ruined as homes with 10 feet of standing water.  Many of
> the
> >> >>> homes were 3 feet off the ground, but that just wasn't enough in
> >> many
> >> >>> places.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The home of a friend was 7 feet above the ground and they got only
> 6
> >> >>> feet of water.  No damage.  2 blocks away they had 8 feet of
> >> water and
> >> >>> no way to get rid of it.  People's entire histories wound up in
> >> >>> dumpsters.  They were still carting it away when we got there.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 3 pictures follow from the white Lakeview section:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Eat at Joe's
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Slight Water Damage
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Sad Boat Picture
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Bill Effros
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Brad Haslett wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Here's some good video of NOLA.  We're not involved there and
> >> have no
> >> >>>> plans
> >> >>>> to be.  The Mississippi Gulf Coast was where Katrina hit but that
> >> gets
> >> >>>> overshadowed by NOLA.  Our heart and our sweat is invested in
> >> >>>> Mississippi.
> >> >>>> Bill E is close to New Orleans and could give you a better
> >> >>>> perspective. This
> >> >>>> video is worth watching.  Every image you see is duplicated on the
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> coast.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Brad
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> http://www.novacvideo.org/
> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
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