[Rhodes22-list] Politics - WMD

[Bill Effros]

Brad,

I think you have some inkling of the fact that I am the most right-wing 
person my left-wing friends know, and the most left-wing person my 
right-wing friends know.

I think of myself as a member of the radical-middle.

I supported many of the goals of the Republican Contract with America, 
and I was genuinely surprised when Republicans abandoned so many of 
those goals.  (Term Limits?  Fiscal Responsibility?  Military Exit 
Strategies?  Civil Liberties?  States Rights?)

It always makes me nervous when one party controls all branches of 
government.  I don't care which party--it's always a prescription for a 
disaster.  And boy, did we get a disaster.

The first thing we've got to do is provide oversight.  Checks and 
Balances is really a good idea--no matter which side of the fence you're 
grazing.

Woman are going to give themselves more of a say on what's going 
on--whether the men like it, or not.  We lost that battle when we let 
them vote.

Things will change.  The country will change.  I think that's good.  
There's no excuse for the unending "spin" we've all been getting--that's 
got to stop.

Bill Effros



Brad Haslett wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Thank you for quoting the Gipper.  I still smile when he speaks from the
> grave.
>
> Today is not a good day for me to "sort fly shit from pepper", I'm busy.
> We'll do this again, hopefully over beer and pizza.
>
> Quite frankly, in the long run it doesn't matter who wins this cycle.  
> I use
> the term "doesn't matter" loosely.  The enemy may have their 
> preference but
> we don't know what that is, do we?  There won't be a chicken in every 
> pot on
> November 8th and we will not be at peace.  Charlie (Rangel) can raise 
> taxes
> and cry discrimination, Nancy can sick the "dogs of law" on the 
> President,
> and everyone can redecorate their new offices (upward and downward).
>
> We slept through the first 20 years of attack until the buildings fell in
> NYC.  This war won't be over in our lifetime.  Maybe Nancy and her 
> friends
> are just what we need.  She scares the hell out of me - maybe it will 
> work
> on the Islamofaciasts.
>
> Brad
>
>
> On 11/3/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>
>> Brad,
>>
>> There you go, again! It's the old bait and switch.
>>
>> Here's what I said:
>>
>> "The Bush administration got the United States into this war by claiming
>> Iraq had actually built nuclear weapons:
>>
>> "We do know, with absolute certainty,
>> that he is using his procurement system
>> to acquire the equipment he needs
>> in order to enrich uranium to
>> build a nuclear weapon."
>>
>> Dick Cheney
>> Vice President
>> September 8, 2002"
>>
>> We did not go to war over mustard gas. The administration tried that,
>> and it did not work.
>>
>> We had provided Iraq with WMD, and we had authorized Saddam Hussein to
>> use the stuff. No news there. But we also knew it has an extremely short
>> shelf life, and what we sent was useless as a weapon against us at this
>> point.
>>
>> The only way the Neoconservatives could get a Declaration of War against
>> Iraq (a stated goal as early as 1991) was by claiming--falsely--that
>> Iraq was trying to build Nuclear Weapons, and that we had to invade them
>> before they could drop the Nucs on us. The highly secretive Bush
>> Administration claimed it had absolute proof, but refused to show it to
>> anyone, and branded people who disputed their claim as "traitors" for
>> not believing the "Commander-in-Chief".
>>
>> I said I cold find no quote from a prominent Democrat who said Iraq had
>> built "Nuclear Weapons" between 1991 and 2003. If I had found one, you
>> can bet your bottom dollar it would have been in my book.
>>
>> "There will always be some uncertainty about
>> how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons,
>> but we don't want the smoking gun to be a
>> mushroom cloud."
>>
>> Condoleezza Rice
>> National Security Advisor
>> September 8, 2002
>>
>> No prominent Democrat ever said anything remotely like that, and your
>> switching "Nuclear Weapons" for "WMD" won't cut it.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>>
>>
>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>> > Bill,
>> >
>> > Did you include these quotes in your book? Oh yeah, you sent it to me,
>> of
>> > course not!
>> >
>> > Brad
>> >
>> > ----------------
>> >
>> >
>> > "Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement 
>> between
>> > Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by 
>> failing to
>> > dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to
>> permit
>> > monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas
>> > Iraq has
>> > developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and 
>> biological
>> > capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear
>> > weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom
>> > Harkin and
>> > Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002
>> >
>> > "Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while
>> > retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction 
>> programs. We
>> > cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline
>> > Albright,
>> > 1998
>> >
>> > "(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and
>> > some
>> > day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he 
>> has 10
>> > times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18,
>> 1998
>> >
>> > "Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all
>> > weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up
>> > to its
>> > agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002
>> >
>> > "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are
>> > confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and
>> > biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash 
>> course to
>> > build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence
>> > reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not
>> yet
>> > achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002
>> >
>> > "There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has
>> > chemical
>> > and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United
>> > States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we
>> > were
>> > before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively
>> > pursuing
>> > nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. 
>> If he
>> > were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region 
>> would
>> > face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on
>> > September 26,
>> > 2002
>> >
>> > "What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq
>> > represents with
>> > the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such
>> > weapons in
>> > the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over
>> > the past
>> > four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this 
>> country has
>> > continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002
>> >
>> > "The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of
>> > threat
>> > Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready
>> > to use
>> > them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today,
>> > Saddam and
>> > all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened
>> > tomorrow." --
>> > Bill Clinton in 1998
>> >
>> > "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports
>> > show that
>> > Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological 
>> weapons
>> > stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He
>> > has also
>> > given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda
>> > members,
>> > though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the
>> terrible
>> > events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left
>> > unchecked,
>> > Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage
>> > biological and
>> > chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.
>> > Should he
>> > succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security
>> > landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects
>> > American
>> > security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002
>> >
>> > "I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence
>> > back in
>> > 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry
>> > into a
>> > warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those
>> > trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in 
>> April of
>> > 2003
>> >
>> > "Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass
>> > destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them
>> > against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998
>> >
>> > "Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our
>> > allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades,
>> > Saddam
>> > Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available
>> > means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has
>> > already
>> > used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to
>> > build
>> > more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear
>> > weapons,
>> > and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." --
>> John
>> > Edwards, Oct 10, 2002
>> >
>> > "The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national
>> > security.
>> > It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to 
>> send
>> a
>> > clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its
>> > determination
>> > to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass
>> > destruction." --
>> > John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002
>> >
>> > "I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its
>> > weapons of
>> > mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002
>> >
>> > "Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf
>> > and we
>> > should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to
>> > weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass
>> > destruction
>> > has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it
>> > will
>> > continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002
>> >
>> > "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that
>> > Saddam
>> > Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity
>> for
>> > the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob
>> > Graham,
>> > December 2002
>> >
>> > "Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to
>> > deprive
>> > his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim
>> > Jeffords, October 8, 2002
>> >
>> > "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and
>> > developing
>> > weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002
>> >
>> > "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger,
>> > that he
>> > is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass 
>> destruction
>> > cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 
>> 2002
>> >
>> > "I will be voting to give the president of the United States the
>> > authority
>> > to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I 
>> believe
>> > that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a
>> > real
>> > and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002
>> >
>> > "The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is
>> > real, but
>> > as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that
>> > war, and
>> > particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox
>> > failed
>> > to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those
>> > weapons.
>> > He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons,
>> > allowing
>> > the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of
>> > mass
>> > destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9,
>> > 2002
>> >
>> > "(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous 
>> dictator,
>> > leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his 
>> offenses. He
>> > presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently
>> > prone
>> > to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America's response
>> > to his
>> > continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass
>> > destruction.
>> > That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, 
>> has
>> > spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons
>> > programs and
>> > disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass
>> > destruction is
>> > real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the
>> Persian
>> > Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003
>> >
>> > "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a
>> > threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the
>> > mandates
>> > of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and
>> the
>> > means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002
>> >
>> > "Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological
>> > weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for
>> > the
>> > United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002
>> >
>> > "Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and
>> > biological
>> > weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors
>> > discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that
>> Iraq
>> > was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that
>> > Iraq is
>> > still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason
>> to
>> > think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued
>> > biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's
>> > claims
>> > about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986,
>> > Iraq
>> > used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish
>> > population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the 
>> past,
>> > there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no
>> > doubt
>> > that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of 
>> mass
>> > destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002
>> >
>> > "As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware
>> > that the
>> > proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave
>> > importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the
>> > development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a
>> > threat to
>> > countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons
>> > inspection
>> > process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998
>> >
>> > "Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible
>> > intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq
>> > still
>> > has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium
>> > perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and
>> > ballistic
>> > missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these
>> > deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly 
>> toxic VX
>> > substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is
>> > stored
>> > in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq
>> > retains
>> > significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to
>> > rapidly
>> > reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un 
>> Weapons
>> > Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998
>> >
>> > "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working
>> > aggressively
>> > to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within
>> > the
>> > next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to
>> > enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that
>> > difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always
>> > underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of 
>> weapons of
>> > mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002
>> >
>> > "Saddam's existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a
>> > very
>> > real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before,
>> > both
>> > against Iraq's enemies and against his own people. He is working to
>> > develop
>> > delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could
>> > bring
>> > these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the
>> > Middle
>> > East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002
>> >
>> > "Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration's policy
>> towards
>> > Iraq, I don't think there can be any question about Saddam's conduct.
>> > He has
>> > systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every
>> > significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy
>> > his
>> > chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has
>> > refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and 
>> authority of
>> > international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep 
>> buying
>> > time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the
>> United
>> > Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those
>> > are
>> > simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/3/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Philip,
>> >>
>> >> I earn a living collecting quotes. I have never seen a quote from 
>> Bill
>> >> Clinton, John Kerry, or any other prominent Democrat saying that Iraq
>> >> built Nuclear Weapons after 1991.
>> >>
>> >> The Bush Administration claimed to have secret evidence that Iraq had
>> >> built nuclear weapons, but it would not show the evidence to
>> anyone--not
>> >> even United Nations Inspectors--because it said to do so would
>> >> compromise national security.
>> >>
>> >> In his State of the Union Address to Congress and the Nation, 
>> President
>> >> Bush said:
>> >>
>> >> "The British government has learned that
>> >> Saddam Hussein recently sought significant
>> >> quantities of uranium from Africa."
>> >>
>> >> George W. Bush
>> >> State of the Union Address
>> >> January 28, 2003
>> >>
>> >> What some Democrats said was that if this claim, were true, it
>> justified
>> >> starting a pre-emptive war attacking Saddam Hussein before he 
>> developed
>> >> the ability to attack us.
>> >>
>> >> It turned out that this claim was false, and that the United States
>> >> Intelligence Community and the Administration both knew it was false,
>> >> although prominent Democrats did not.
>> >>
>> >> Many prominent Democrats opposed pre-emptive war. Here is what one of
>> >> them said:
>> >>
>> >> "If we are going to hit first,
>> >> based on perceived dangers,
>> >> the perceptions had better be accurate."
>> >>
>> >> Robert Byrd
>> >> Senator, West Virginia
>> >> June 24, 2003
>> >>
>> >> Mr. Byrd is actually running for office this year. I believe his seat
>> >> is considered safe for the Democrats.
>> >>
>> >> Bill Effros
>> >>
>> >> PS -- Both Republicans and Democrats paid off Saddam and used him and
>> >> his army to fight both Iran and the terrorists. We put Saddam and the
>> >> Baathists in power in the first place. We had Saddam completely
>> >> contained, and he was using all his resources to try to keep the 
>> lid on
>> >> his country. Which meant fighting Islamic extremists backed by both
>> >> Iran and Saudi Arabia:
>> >>
>> >> "A weakened, fragmented, chaotic Iraq...is
>> >> more dangerous in the long run than a
>> >> contained Saddam is now."
>> >>
>> >> General Anthony C. Zinni
>> >> US Central Command (CENTCOM), Commander
>> >> October, 1998
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 3drecon at comcast.net wrote:
>> >> > Bill,
>> >> > In all fairness, you should also post the comments of former Pres
>> >> Clinton, John Kerry and other prominent Democrats who said much the
>> same
>> >> things.
>> >> >
>> >> > Remember, I didn't think we should have gone after Iraq
>> >> either. Frankly, we should have paid off Saddam and used him and his
>> >> army
>> >> to fight the terrorists.
>> >> >
>> >> > Philip
>> >> >
>> >> > -------------- Original message --------------
>> >> > From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Brad,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Getting desperate, are we?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Bush administration got the United States into this war by
>> >> claiming
>> >> >> Iraq had actually built nuclear weapons:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ?We do know, with absolute certainty,
>> >> >> that he is using his procurement system
>> >> >> to acquire the equipment he needs
>> >> >> in order to enrich uranium to
>> >> >> build a nuclear weapon.?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dick Cheney
>> >> >> Vice President
>> >> >> September 8, 2002
>> >> >>
>> >> >> and
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ?We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted
>> >> >> nuclear weapons.?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dick Cheney
>> >> >> Vice President
>> >> >> March 16, 2003
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The documents referenced in the New York Times were posted on the
>> web
>> >> by
>> >> >> the Bush Administration in an effort by Republicans to flush out
>> more
>> >> >> documents to support administration claims.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The documents posted were all captured during the 1991 Gulf war.
>> >> No one
>> >> >> said Iraq wasn't trying to build WMD prior to the first gulf 
>> war. It
>> >> >> was the current administration that claimed Iraq had actually 
>> built
>> >> >> nuclear weapons after the first Gulf war, and that the United 
>> States
>> >> had
>> >> >> to invade Iraq in order to find them.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There has not been one shred of evidence to support administration
>> >> >> claims that Iraq tried to build nuclear weapons between 1991 and
>> >> 2003.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The point of the Times story was that this administration, which
>> >> is now
>> >> >> running on a "we can protect America better" platform, is posting
>> >> plans
>> >> >> for building nuclear weapons on the Internet in a last ditch
>> >> effort to
>> >> >> try to justify false claims that Iraq was building nuclear weapons
>> >> just
>> >> >> prior to our invasion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Now Republicans are trying to claim that documents they posted,
>> which
>> >> >> detail how to build atomic bombs, refer to Iraqi attempts to build
>> >> >> weapons after 1991.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You guys must think everyone else is really stupid.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Bill Effros
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> You gotta love the intelligentsia at the New York Times. No 
>> doubt,
>> >> >>> this was
>> >> >>> supposed to be a hit piece on the Bush Administration. Perhaps 
>> they
>> >> >>> outwitted themselves? An analysis and the original article from
>> >> today's
>> >> >>> newspaper is attached.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Brad
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ---------------------
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> *Shocker: New York Times Confirms Iraqi Nuclear Weapons Program
>> >> >>> *11/02 10:39
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> PM> 5N2Y=>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> When
>> >> >>> I saw the headline on Drudge earlier tonight, that the New York
>> >> Times
>> >> >>> had a
>> >> >>> big story coming out tomorrow that had something to do with Iraq
>> and
>> >> >>> WMDs, I
>> >> >>> was ready for an October November Surprise.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Well, Drudge is giving us the scoop.
>> >> >>> And if
>> >> >>> it's meant to be a slam-Bush story, I think the Times team may 
>> have
>> >> >>> overthunk this:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> *U.S. POSTING OF IRAQ NUKE DOCS ON WEB COULD HAVE HELPED IRAN...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> NYT REPORTING FRIDAY, SOURCES SAY: Federal government set up Web
>> >> site
>> >> >>> ? **Operation
>> >> >>> Iraqi Freedom Document
>> >> >>> Portal*
>> >> >>> * ? to make public a vast archive of Iraqi documents captured
>> during
>> >> the
>> >> >>> war; detailed accounts of Iraq's secret nuclear research; a 
>> 'basic
>> >> >>> guide to
>> >> >>> building an atom bomb'... Officials of the International Atomic
>> >> Energy
>> >> >>> Agency fear the information could help Iran develop nuclear 
>> arms...
>> >> >>> contain
>> >> >>> charts, diagrams, equations and lengthy narratives about bomb
>> >> building
>> >> >>> that
>> >> >>> the nuclear experts say go beyond what is available elsewhere on
>> the
>> >> >>> Internet and in other public forums...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Website now shut... Developing... *
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I'm sorry, did the New York Times just put on the front page that
>> >> >>> *IRAQ HAD
>> >> >>> A NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM AND WAS PLOTTING TO BUILD AN ATOMIC
>> BOMB*?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> What? Wait a minute. The entire mantra of the war critics has
>> >> been "no
>> >> >>> WMDs, no WMDs, no threat, no threat", for the past three years
>> >> solid.
>> >> Now
>> >> >>> we're being told that the Bush administration erred by making
>> public
>> >> >>> information that could help any nation build an atomic bomb.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Let's go back and clarify: IRAQ HAD NUCLEAR WEAPONS PLANS SO
>> >> ADVANCED
>> >> AND
>> >> >>> DETAILED THAT ANY COUNTRY COULD HAVE USED THEM.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think the Times editors are counting on this being spun as a
>> "Boy,
>> >> did
>> >> >>> Bush screw up" meme; the problem is, to do it, they have to knock
>> >> down
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> "there was no threat in Iraq" meme, once and for all. Because
>> >> obviously,
>> >> >>> Saddam could have sold this information to anybody, any other
>> state,
>> >> >>> or any
>> >> >>> well-funded terrorist group that had publicly pledged to kill
>> >> millions
>> >> of
>> >> >>> Americans and had expressed interest in nuclear arms. You know,
>> >> like,
>> >> >>> oh...
>> >> >>> *al-Qaeda.*
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The New York Times just tore the heart out of the antiwar 
>> argument,
>> >> >>> and they
>> >> >>> are apparently completely oblivous to it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The antiwar crowd is going to have to argue that the information
>> >> somehow
>> >> >>> wasn't dangerous in the hands of Saddam Hussein, but was 
>> dangerous
>> >> >>> posted on
>> >> >>> the Internet. It doesn't work. It can't be both no threat to
>> America
>> >> >>> and yet
>> >> >>> also somehow a threat to America once it's in the hands of Iran.
>> >> Game,
>> >> >>> set,
>> >> >>> and match.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> UPDATE: The article is up
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> here>
>> >>
>> &en=1511d6b3da302d4f&hp=&ex=1162530000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print> 
>>
>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> .
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Having now read it, I can see that every stop has been pulled out
>> to
>> >> >>> ensure
>> >> >>> that a reader will believe that posting these documents was a
>> >> strategic
>> >> >>> blunder of the first order.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> But the story retains its own inherent contradiction: The
>> >> information
>> >> in
>> >> >>> these documents is so dangerous, that every step must be taken to
>> >> >>> ensure it
>> >> >>> doesn't end up in the wrong hands... except for topping the 
>> regime
>> >> that
>> >> >>> actually has the documents.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> (By the way, is it just me, or is the article entirely devoid of
>> any
>> >> >>> indication that Iran actually accessed the documents? This threat
>> >> >>> that, "You
>> >> >>> idiot! Iran could access all the documents!" is entirely
>> >> speculative.
>> >> >>> If the
>> >> >>> government servers hosting the web site have signs that 
>> Iranian web
>> >> >>> browsers
>> >> >>> accessed those pages, it's a different story; my guess is 
>> somebody
>> >> >>> already
>> >> >>> knows the answer to that question.)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I'm still kinda blown away by this paragraph:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Among the dozens of documents in English were Iraqi reports
>> >> written in
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> 1990's and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of
>> making
>> >> sure
>> >> >>> Iraq abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian
>> >> Gulf
>> >> >>> war.
>> >> >>> *Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein's scientists were 
>> on the
>> >> >>> verge of
>> >> >>> building an atom bomb, as little as a year away.*
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Is this sentence referring to 1990, before the Persian Gulf 
>> War? Or
>> >> 2002,
>> >> >>> months before the invasion of Iraq? Because "Iraq is a year away
>> >> from
>> >> >>> building a nuclear bomb" was supposed to be a myth, a lie that 
>> Bush
>> >> >>> used to
>> >> >>> trick us into war.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And yet here is the New York Times, saying that Iraq had a 
>> "how to
>> >> >>> manual"
>> >> >>> on how to build a nuclear bomb, and could have had a nuke in a
>> year.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In other news, it's good to see that the New York Times is firmly
>> >> against
>> >> >>> publicizing sensitive and classified information. Unless, of
>> course,
>> >> >>> they're
>> >> >>> the ones doing it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ONE LAST THOUGHT: So Iraq had all the know-how, all the plans,
>> >> all the
>> >> >>> designs, "charts, diagrams, equations and lengthy narratives 
>> about
>> >> bomb
>> >> >>> building." Unless they were keeping these documents around as
>> future
>> >> >>> material for paper airplanes, all this stuff constituted a 
>> plan of
>> >> action
>> >> >>> for some point in the future; but to complete creating these
>> >> weapons,
>> >> >>> they
>> >> >>> would have needed stuff. I don't know an exact list of what they
>> >> would
>> >> >>> have
>> >> >>> needed, but articles like this
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> one> reignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3597>give
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> a good idea. Sounds like you need a firing mechanism (the right
>> kind
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> firearm would suffice), some fairly common industrial equipment
>> >> like a
>> >> >>> lathe, material for the bomb casing, some fairly common
>> conventional
>> >> >>> explosives, all of which would have been easy to get in Iraq. Oh,
>> >> and,
>> >> of
>> >> >>> course, the nuclear material itself.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> They would have needed something like... um... you know... what's
>> >> that
>> >> >>> stuff
>> >> >>> called? Oh, that's right.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> *Yellowcake.*
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> But we know Iraq would never make an effort to get yellowcake. 
>> Joe
>> >> Wilson
>> >> >>> had tea with officials in Niger who said so.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ---------
>> >> >>> November 3, 2006
>> >> >>> U.S. Web Archive Is Said to Reveal a Nuclear Primer
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> By WILLIAM J.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> BROAD> ad/index.html?inline=nyt-per>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Last March, the federal government set up a Web site to make
>> >> public a
>> >> >>> vast
>> >> >>> archive of Iraqi documents captured during the war. The Bush
>> >> >>> administration
>> >> >>> did so under pressure from Congressional
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Republicans> republican_party/index.html?inline=nyt-org>who
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> had said they hoped to "leverage the Internet" to find new
>> >> evidence of
>> >> >>> the prewar dangers posed by Saddam
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Hussein> ein/index.html?inline=nyt-per>.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> But in recent weeks, the site has posted some documents that
>> weapons
>> >> >>> experts
>> >> >>> say are a danger themselves: detailed accounts of
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Iraq> aq/index.html?inline=nyt-geo>'s
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> secret nuclear research before the 1991 Persian Gulf war. The
>> >> >>> documents, the
>> >> >>> experts say, constitute a basic guide to building an atom bomb.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Last night, the government shut down the Web site after The New
>> York
>> >> >>> Times
>> >> >>> asked about complaints from weapons experts and arms-control
>> >> officials. A
>> >> >>> spokesman for the director of national intelligence said access
>> >> to the
>> >> >>> site
>> >> >>> had been suspended "pending a review to ensure its content is
>> >> appropriate
>> >> >>> for public viewing."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Officials of the International Atomic Energy
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Agency> national_atomic_energy_agency/index.html?inline=nyt-org>,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> fearing that the information could help states like Iran develop
>> >> nuclear
>> >> >>> arms, had privately protested last week to the American
>> >> ambassador to
>> >> the
>> >> >>> agency, according to European diplomats who spoke on condition of
>> >> >>> anonymity
>> >> >>> because of the issue's sensitivity. One diplomat said the 
>> agency's
>> >> >>> technical
>> >> >>> experts "were shocked" at the public disclosures.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Early this morning, a spokesman for Gregory L. Schulte, the
>> American
>> >> >>> ambassador, denied that anyone from the agency had approached Mr.
>> >> Schulte
>> >> >>> about the Web site.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The documents, roughly a dozen in number, contain charts, 
>> diagrams,
>> >> >>> equations and lengthy narratives about bomb building that nuclear
>> >> experts
>> >> >>> who have viewed them say go beyond what is available elsewhere on
>> >> the
>> >> >>> Internet and in other public forums. For instance, the papers 
>> give
>> >> >>> detailed
>> >> >>> information on how to build nuclear firing circuits and 
>> triggering
>> >> >>> explosives, as well as the radioactive cores of atom bombs.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "For the U.S. to toss a match into this flammable area is very
>> >> >>> irresponsible," said A. Bryan Siebert, a former director of
>> >> >>> classification
>> >> >>> at the federal Department of Energy, which runs the nation's
>> nuclear
>> >> arms
>> >> >>> program. "There's a lot of things about nuclear weapons that are
>> >> >>> secret and
>> >> >>> should remain so."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The government had received earlier warnings about the contents
>> >> of the
>> >> >>> Web
>> >> >>> site. Last spring, after the site began posting old Iraqi 
>> documents
>> >> about
>> >> >>> chemical weapons, United
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Nations> ed_nations/index.html?inline=nyt-org>arms-control
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> officials in New York won the withdrawal of a report that gave
>> >> >>> information on how to make tabun and sarin, nerve agents that
>> >> kill by
>> >> >>> causing respiratory failure.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The campaign for the online archive was mounted by conservative
>> >> >>> publications
>> >> >>> and politicians, who said that the nation's spy agencies had 
>> failed
>> >> >>> adequately to analyze the 48,000 boxes of documents seized since
>> the
>> >> >>> March
>> >> >>> 2003 invasion. With the public increasingly skeptical about the
>> >> rationale
>> >> >>> and conduct of the war, the chairmen of the House and Senate
>> >> intelligence
>> >> >>> committees argued that wide analysis and translation of the
>> >> documents
>> >> >>> ? most
>> >> >>> of them in Arabic ? would reinvigorate the search for clues that
>> Mr.
>> >> >>> Hussein
>> >> >>> had resumed his unconventional arms programs in the years before
>> the
>> >> >>> invasion. American search teams never found such evidence.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The director of national intelligence, John D.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Negroponte> egroponte/index.html?inline=nyt-per>,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> had resisted setting up the Web site, which some intelligence
>> >> >>> officials felt
>> >> >>> implicitly raised questions about the competence and judgment of
>> >> >>> government
>> >> >>> analysts. But President Bush approved the site's creation after
>> >> >>> Congressional Republicans proposed legislation to force the
>> >> documents'
>> >> >>> release.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In his statement last night, Mr. Negroponte's spokesman, Chad
>> >> Kolton,
>> >> >>> said,
>> >> >>> "While strict criteria had already been established to govern
>> posted
>> >> >>> documents, the material currently on the Web site, as well as the
>> >> >>> procedures
>> >> >>> used to post new documents, will be carefully reviewed before the
>> >> site
>> >> >>> becomes available again."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> A spokesman for the National Security
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Council> onal_security_council/index.html?inline=nyt-org>,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Gordon D. Johndroe, said, "We're confident the D.N.I. is 
>> taking the
>> >> >>> appropriate steps to maintain the balance between public
>> information
>> >> and
>> >> >>> national security."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The Web site, "Operation Iraqi Freedom Document Portal," was a
>> >> constantly
>> >> >>> expanding portrait of prewar Iraq. Its many thousands of 
>> documents
>> >> >>> included
>> >> >>> everything from a collection of religious and nationalistic
>> >> poetry to
>> >> >>> instructions for the repair of parachutes to handwritten notes 
>> from
>> >> Mr.
>> >> >>> Hussein's intelligence service. It became a popular quarry for a
>> >> >>> legion of
>> >> >>> bloggers, translators and amateur historians.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Among the dozens of documents in English were Iraqi reports
>> >> written in
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> 1990s and in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of 
>> making
>> >> sure
>> >> >>> Iraq had abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the
>> >> Persian
>> >> >>> Gulf
>> >> >>> war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein's scientists 
>> were on
>> >> the
>> >> >>> verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> European diplomats said this week that some of those nuclear
>> >> documents
>> >> on
>> >> >>> the Web site were identical to the ones presented to the United
>> >> Nations
>> >> >>> Security
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Council> rity_council/index.html?inline=nyt-org>in
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> late 2002, as America got ready to invade Iraq. But unlike 
>> those on
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> Web site, the papers given to the Security Council had been
>> >> extensively
>> >> >>> edited, to remove sensitive information on unconventional arms.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The deletions, the diplomats said, had been done in consultation
>> >> with
>> >> the
>> >> >>> United States and other nuclear-weapons nations. Mohamed
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> ElBaradei> lbaradei/index.html?inline=nyt-per>,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> the director of the International Atomic Energy Agency, which ran
>> >> the
>> >> >>> nuclear part of the inspections, told the Security Council in 
>> late
>> >> >>> 2002 that
>> >> >>> the deletions were "consistent with the principle that
>> >> >>> proliferation-sensitive information should not be released."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In Europe, a senior diplomat said atomic experts there had
>> >> studied the
>> >> >>> nuclear documents on the Web site and judged their public release
>> as
>> >> >>> potentially dangerous. "It's a cookbook," said the diplomat, who
>> >> spoke
>> >> on
>> >> >>> condition of anonymity because of his agency's rules. "If you had
>> >> >>> this, it
>> >> >>> would short-circuit a lot of things."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The New York Times had examined dozens of the documents and 
>> asked a
>> >> half
>> >> >>> dozen nuclear experts to evaluate some of them.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Peter D. Zimmerman, a physicist and former United States 
>> government
>> >> arms
>> >> >>> scientist now at the war studies department of King's College,
>> >> London,
>> >> >>> called the posted material "very sensitive, much of it 
>> undoubtedly
>> >> secret
>> >> >>> restricted data."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Ray E. Kidder, a senior nuclear physicist at the Lawrence 
>> Livermore
>> >> >>> National
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Laboratory>
>> >> awrence_livermore_national_laboratory/index.html?inline=nyt-org>in
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> California, an arms design center, said "some things in these
>> >> >>> documents
>> >> >>> would be helpful" to nations aspiring to develop nuclear weapons
>> and
>> >> >>> should
>> >> >>> have remained secret.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> A senior American intelligence official who deals routinely with
>> >> atomic
>> >> >>> issues said the documents showed "where the Iraqis failed and how
>> to
>> >> get
>> >> >>> around the failures." The documents, he added, could perhaps help
>> >> Iran
>> >> or
>> >> >>> other nations making a serious effort to develop nuclear arms, 
>> but
>> >> >>> probably
>> >> >>> not terrorists or poorly equipped states. The official, who
>> >> requested
>> >> >>> anonymity because of his agency's rules against public comment,
>> >> called
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> papers "a road map that helps you get from point A to point B, 
>> but
>> >> >>> only if
>> >> >>> you already have a car."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Thomas S. Blanton, director of the National Security Archive, a
>> >> private
>> >> >>> group at George Washington
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> University>
>> >> eorge_washington_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org>that
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> tracks federal secrecy decisions, said the impetus for the Web
>> >> site's
>> >> >>> creation came from an array of sources ? private conservative
>> >> groups,
>> >> >>> Congressional Republicans and some figures in the Bush
>> >> administration
>> >> >>> ? who
>> >> >>> clung to the belief that close examination of the captured
>> documents
>> >> >>> would
>> >> >>> show that Mr. Hussein's government had clandestinely
>> >> reconstituted an
>> >> >>> unconventional arms programs.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "There were hundreds of people who said, 'There's got to be 
>> gold in
>> >> them
>> >> >>> thar hills,' " Mr. Blanton said.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The campaign for the Web site was led by the chairman of the 
>> House
>> >> >>> Intelligence Committee, Representative Peter Hoekstra of 
>> Michigan.
>> >> Last
>> >> >>> November, he and his Senate counterpart, Pat Roberts of Kansas,
>> >> wrote
>> >> >>> to Mr.
>> >> >>> Negroponte, asking him to post the Iraqi material. The sheer
>> >> volume of
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> documents, they argued, had overwhelmed the intelligence 
>> community.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Some intelligence officials feared that individual documents,
>> >> >>> translated and
>> >> >>> interpreted by amateurs, would be used out of context to
>> >> second-guess
>> >> the
>> >> >>> intelligence agencies' view that Mr. Hussein did not have
>> >> unconventional
>> >> >>> weapons or substantive ties to Al
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Qaeda> da/index.html?inline=nyt-org>.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Reviewing the documents for release would add an unnecessary
>> >> burden on
>> >> >>> busy
>> >> >>> intelligence analysts, they argued.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On March 16, after the documents' release was approved, Mr.
>> >> Negroponte's
>> >> >>> office issued a terse public announcement including a disclaimer
>> >> that
>> >> >>> remained on the Web site: "The U.S. government has made no
>> >> determination
>> >> >>> regarding the authenticity of the documents, validity or factual
>> >> >>> accuracy of
>> >> >>> the information contained therein, or the quality of any
>> >> translations,
>> >> >>> when
>> >> >>> available."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On April 18, about a month after the first documents were made
>> >> public,
>> >> >>> Mr.
>> >> >>> Hoekstra issued a news release acknowledging "minimal risks," but
>> >> >>> saying the
>> >> >>> site "will enable us to better understand information such as
>> >> Saddam's
>> >> >>> links
>> >> >>> to terrorism, weapons of mass destruction and violence against 
>> the
>> >> Iraqi
>> >> >>> people." He added: "It will allow us to leverage the Internet to
>> >> enable a
>> >> >>> mass examination as opposed to limiting it to a few exclusive
>> >> elites."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Yesterday, before the site was shut down, Jamal Ware, a spokesman
>> >> for
>> >> Mr.
>> >> >>> Hoekstra, said the government had "developed a sound process to
>> >> review
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> documents to ensure sensitive or dangerous information is not
>> >> posted."
>> >> >>> Later, he said the complaints about the site "didn't sound like a
>> >> big
>> >> >>> deal,"
>> >> >>> adding, "We were a little surprised when they pulled the plug."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The precise review process that led to the posting of the nuclear
>> >> and
>> >> >>> chemical-weapons documents is unclear. But in testimony before
>> >> >>> Congress last
>> >> >>> spring, a senior official from Mr. Negroponte's office, Daniel
>> >> Butler,
>> >> >>> described a "triage" system used to sort out material that should
>> >> remain
>> >> >>> classified. Even so, he said, the policy was to "be biased 
>> towards
>> >> >>> release
>> >> >>> if at all possible." Government officials say all the 
>> documents in
>> >> Arabic
>> >> >>> have received at least a quick review by Arabic linguists.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Some of the first posted documents dealt with Iraq's program to
>> make
>> >> germ
>> >> >>> weapons, followed by a wave of papers on chemical arms.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> At the United Nations in New York, the chemical papers raised
>> alarms
>> >> >>> at the
>> >> >>> Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, which had
>> >> been in
>> >> >>> charge
>> >> >>> of searching Iraq for all unconventional arms, save the nuclear
>> >> ones.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In April, diplomats said, the commission's acting chief weapons
>> >> >>> inspector,
>> >> >>> Demetrius Perricos, lodged an objection with the United States
>> >> mission
>> >> to
>> >> >>> the United Nations over the document that dealt with the nerve
>> >> agents
>> >> >>> tabun
>> >> >>> and sarin.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Soon, the document vanished from the Web site. On June 8, 
>> diplomats
>> >> said,
>> >> >>> Mr. Perricos told the Security Council of how risky arms
>> information
>> >> had
>> >> >>> shown up on a public Web site and how his agency appreciated the
>> >> American
>> >> >>> cooperation in resolving the matter.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In September, the Web site began posting the nuclear 
>> documents, and
>> >> some
>> >> >>> soon raised concerns. On Sept. 12, it posted a document it called
>> >> >>> "Progress
>> >> >>> of Iraqi nuclear program circa 1995." That description is
>> >> potentially
>> >> >>> misleading since the research occurred years earlier.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The Iraqi document is marked "Draft FFCD Version 3 (20.12.95),"
>> >> >>> meaning it
>> >> >>> was preparatory for the "Full, Final, Complete Disclosure" that
>> Iraq
>> >> >>> made to
>> >> >>> United Nations inspectors in March 1996. The document carries 
>> three
>> >> >>> diagrams
>> >> >>> showing cross sections of bomb cores, and their diameters.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Sept. 20, the site posted a much larger document, "Summary of
>> >> >>> technical
>> >> >>> achievements of Iraq's former nuclear program." It runs to 51
>> pages,
>> >> 18
>> >> >>> focusing on the development of Iraq's bomb design. Topics 
>> included
>> >> >>> physical
>> >> >>> theory, the atomic core and high-explosive experiments. By early
>> >> October,
>> >> >>> diplomats and officials said, United Nations arms inspectors 
>> in New
>> >> >>> York and
>> >> >>> their counterparts in Vienna were alarmed and discussing what to
>> do.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Last week in Vienna, Olli J. Heinonen, head of safeguards at the
>> >> >>> international atomic agency, expressed concern about the
>> >> documents to
>> >> Mr.
>> >> >>> Schulte, diplomats said.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Scott Shane contributed reporting.
>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>
>> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>