[Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars

Tue Oct 10 10:45:48 EDT 2006

Where is everyone's social conscience?  Getting to nearly no emissions and
reducing our dependence on foreign oil.  While one hybrid will not cure
global warming and bring OPEC to its knees, just think about the
possibilities if half the cars in the US were hybrid?  We Americans are
spoiled.  No one wants to pay to clean up the environmental mess that our
capitalistic money grubbing society has created.  We want to have our cake
and eat it too.  If poor native Alaskan's can turn down free oil from
Venezuela, then we all should be able to cough up a few more dollars for
vehicles that burn less fuel and make for a cleaner environment.

Man.....I'm starting to sound like a liberal!!  But I'm not.

Really, I'm not.

Also, did you factor in the Tax Credit?  I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid a
few months ago and was able to haggle the price down to a point that, with
the tax credit, the price was nearly equal to the standard Civic (of
course, I probably could have haggled the price down on the standard model
as well).

Bottom Line is that people that buy hybrids are not driven solely by
economics.

Bill Wickman

             Bill Effros                                                   
             <bill at effros.com>                                             
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             10/09/2006 11:31                                      Subject 
             PM                        [Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars         

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Thanks, Hank,

I did the same math, and came to the same conclusion.  But I have a
special need, and that is why I'm buying the car.  I will be doing a
book tour next Spring, the first of many.  I drive from city to city
because it's so much less a hassle than flying.  My interest in the
Toyota Camry is its range, which is better than 600 miles on a tankful.

When you do the morning news you often have to be at the TV station
before 6:00 am.  If you have driven a couple of hundred miles to get to
the next city late at night, you don't want to have to drive around to
find an open gas station, either late at night or early the next
morning.  I like to sleep as close to the first TV station as possible,
and often they are located in remote places with no nearby gas
stations.  The huge range allows me to drive from one city to the next,
hitting all the local TV stations the next morning before I have to fill
the tank and get to the next town.

This is also the reason for not buying a diesel.  In many places diesel
is just too hard to come by.

The last time I did this I bought a Camry that had a 500 plus mile
range.  I didn't often get to the bottom of the tank, but a few times I
did.  I liked the car--it was comfortable and quiet for repeated long
trips.  The new one is supposed to have the same attributes, and the 600
mile range is the big draw for me.

Bill Effros

Hank wrote:
> Bill,
>
> On the subject of hybrid cars, we recently bought a new car and we were
> looking at the Honda Civic, both standard and hybrid.  For us, the
> math just
> didn't work out and we ended up buying the standard version. I'll show
> you
> what I mean.  FYI, both of the cause were comparable equipped with the
> only
> real difference being the drivetrain.
>
>
>
> Honda Civic
>
> MPG
>
> Gas Cost/Gal
>
> Annual Miles
>
> Gas/year (Mileage/MPG)
>
> Gas Cost/year
>
> Veh Cost
>
> # of years to break even
>
> Regular
>
> 30
>
> 2.5
>
> 15000
>
> 500
>
> 1250
>
> 18000
>
>
>
> Hybrid
>
> 50
>
> 2.5
>
> 15000
>
> 300
>
> 750
>
> 22000
>
> 8
>
>
>
> At a savings of $500 a year in gas, it would take 8 years for the
> hybrid to
> break even with the normal engine version because of the increased
> purchase
> price. To me, that is just not economically feasible.
> Hank
>
> On 10/9/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>
>> Saroj,
>>
>> Just found this.  Be careful on geothermal.  My brother tried it and got
>> burned--no, that's a bad word word in this instance--he got frozen--it
>> sucked so much water out of the ground that there was none left for
>> cooking or bathing--not to mention that it got lukewarm very quickly.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> PS -- I've rented the straight diesel cars in Europe and they are
>> sensational.  You can't tell they are diesels any more except when you
>> keep passing gas pumps without needing any more fuel.  I am seriously
>> considering a hybrid Camry for myself.
>>
>> Saroj Gilbert wrote:
>> > I've heard the deisel - electric cars are available in Europe now.. so
>> > maybe not so far away.
>> >
>> > I am planning on geothermal which should certainly help with the
>> > cooling... as it turns out I have to dig a well on this property even
>> > though it is fairly Urban... a very old and small neighborhood where
>> > most have wells already so no impetus to provide city water.  which is
>> > just fine with me. The well drilling company I plan to use already has
>> > experience drilling the geothermal holes as well... so one-stop
>> shopping.
>> >
>> > Also already planning on the SIP approach... trying to blend the
>> > energy-efficiency with some interesting architecture aside from the
>> > typical Colonial or brick ranch that is common in this area.  Thought
>> > seriously about doing a dome, but decided against it for this area for
>> > asset-protection reasons.
>> >
>> > Thanks for the good info!
>> >
>> > Saroj
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 1:01 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> >
>> >
>> > Bill & Saroj,
>> >
>> > Bill, the Jetta will work for me.  I've owned a couple of early 80's
>> > diesel
>> > Rabbits and a diesel Audi 4000 (same drive train) The Rabbit hatchback
>> is
>> > coming back but I prefer a sedan.  I flew GDL, Mexico all last month
>> > where
>> > the Jetta is built.  They just settled their strike and hopefully the
>> > quality will be good.
>> >
>> > Saroj, diesel-hybrids are off the shelf technology and my company
>> did a
>> > joint-venture with Eaton to produce diesel-hybrid delivery trucks.
>> Duh!
>> > Think trains and WW2 submarines.  You should expect 80mpg+ when they
>> come
>> > but when will that be?  I'll move earlier and go with a straight
>> > diesel and
>> > hope for rapeseed biodiesel.  The only way to go with the home is
>> > insulated
>> > concrete forms and geo-thermal radiant heating.  Cooling is another
>> > issue.
>> > A nuke powerplant running A/C is the ticket.  You have no control
>> > where your
>> > electrons come from but they probably come from coal.
>> >
>> > Didn't we have this same discussion in the 70's?
>> >
>> > Brad
>> >
>> >
>> > On 9/15/06, Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I hear you on that... as for me... I'm looking to diesel hybrid
>> for my
>> >> next
>> >> car... and currently doing intensive research on how to make my new
>> >> house
>> >> (yet to be built) use as little non-renewable energy as possible...
>> >> quite
>> >> an
>> >> interesting exploration for me... refreshing information that I
>> hadn't
>> >> read
>> >> too much about since I subscribed to Mother Earth News in the
>> >> 70's.  Heating
>> >> shouldn't be a problem but dealing with the hot, humid summers
>> will be
>> >> challenging.
>> >>
>> >> Its hard to balance the economics on electricity usage in this area
>> >> (S.E.
>> >> VA) since it is so very low... 6 cents a KW if I remember correctly;
>> >> however
>> >> I feel strongly about it and will do whatever I can... luckily I work
>> >> out
>> >> of
>> >> my home and the new house will be so close to a lot of services
>> that I
>> >> should be able to ride the bike a lot of places.
>> >>
>> >> Saroj
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:54 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Saroj,
>> >>
>> >> Maybe, I don't agree with all the premises of the article but
>> everything
>> >> does line up for a fall, just not as far as the author suggested.
>> The
>> >> unfortunate repercussion is that it will encourage us to go back
>> to our
>> >> foolish ways.  Peak Oil is coming!  The folks who have the most
>> oil are
>> >> still the same folks who hate us the most.  The two fastest
>> growing oil
>> >> consuming nations, China and India, aren't slowing down. China
>> doesn't
>> >> give
>> >> a shit about anything but China, and they're cutting deals everywhere
>> >> for
>> >> every commodity.  I can't make my jet or our equipment burn less
>> >> fuel, but
>> >> my next car *will *get 50mpg+.  Hopefully it won't smell like shrimp.
>> >>
>> >> Brad
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 9/15/06, Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > That would be good news...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>> >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:23 AM
>> >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/home/>
>> >> >
>> >> > Thursday, September 14, 2006 - 12:00 AM
>> >> >
>> >> > *.*
>> >> >
>> >> > **
>> >> > *
>> >> > **Analyst predicts plunge in gas prices*
>> >> >
>> >> > *By Kevin G. Hall*
>> >> > *McClatchy Newspapers*
>> >> >
>> >> > WASHINGTON — The recent sharp drop in the global price of crude oil
>> >> could
>> >> > mark the start of a massive sell-off that returns gasoline
>> prices to
>> >> lows
>> >> > not seen since the late 1990s — perhaps as low as $1.15 a gallon.
>> >> >
>> >> > "All the hurricane flags are flying" in oil markets, said Philip
>> >> Verleger,
>> >> > a
>> >> > noted energy consultant who was a lone voice several years ago in
>> >> warning
>> >> > that oil prices would soar. Now, he says, they appear to be poised
>> >> for a
>> >> > dramatic plunge.
>> >> >
>> >> > Crude-oil prices have fallen about $14, or roughly 17 percent, from
>> >> their
>> >> > July 14 peak of $78.40. After falling seven straight days, they
>> rose
>> >> > slightly Wednesday in trading on the New York Mercantile
>> Exchange, to
>> >> > $63.97, partly in reaction to a government report showing fuel
>> >> inventories
>> >> > a
>> >> > bit lower than expected. But the overall price drop is expected to
>> >> > continue,
>> >> > and prices could fall much more in the weeks and months ahead.
>> >> >
>> >> > Here's why:
>> >> >
>> >> > For most of the past two years, oil prices have risen because the
>> >> world's
>> >> > oil producers have struggled to keep pace with growing demand,
>> >> > particularly
>> >> > from China and India. Spare oil-production capacity grew so tight
>> that
>> >> > market players feared that any disruption to oil production could
>> >> create
>> >> > shortages.
>> >> >
>> >> > Fear of disruption focused on fighting in Nigeria, escalating
>> tensions
>> >> > over
>> >> > Iran's nuclear program, violence between Israel and Lebanon that
>> might
>> >> > spread to oil-producing neighbors, and the prospect that hurricanes
>> >> might
>> >> > topple oil facilities in the Gulf of Mexico.
>> >> >
>> >> > Oil traders bet that such worrisome developments would drive up the
>> >> future
>> >> > price of oil. Oil is traded in contracts for future delivery, and
>> >> > companies
>> >> > that take physical delivery of oil are just a small part of total
>> >> trading.
>> >> > Large pension and commodities funds are the big traders and they're
>> >> > seeking
>> >> > profits. They've sunk $105 billion or more into oil futures in
>> recent
>> >> > years,
>> >> > according to Verleger. Their bets that oil prices would rise in the
>> >> future
>> >> > bid up the price of oil.
>> >> >
>> >> > That, in turn, led users of oil to create stockpiles as cushions
>> >> against
>> >> > supply disruptions and even higher future prices. Now inventories
>> >> of oil
>> >> > are
>> >> > approaching 1990 levels.
>> >> >
>> >> > But many of the conditions that drove investors to bid up oil
>> >> prices are
>> >> > ebbing. Tensions over Israel, Lebanon and Nigeria are easing. The
>> >> > hurricane
>> >> > season has presented no threat so far to the Gulf of Mexico. The
>> U.S.
>> >> peak
>> >> > summer driving season is over, so gasoline demand is falling.
>> >> >
>> >> > With fear of supply disruptions ebbing, oil prices began sliding.
>> With
>> >> oil
>> >> > inventories high, refiners that turn oil into gasoline are expected
>> to
>> >> cut
>> >> > production. As refiners cut production, oil companies increasingly
>> >> risk
>> >> > getting stuck with excess oil supplies. There's already anecdotal
>> >> evidence
>> >> > of oil companies chartering tankers to store excess oil.
>> >> >
>> >> > All this is turning financial markets increasingly bearish on oil.
>> >> >
>> >> > "If we continue to build inventories, and if we have a warm winter
>> >> like
>> >> we
>> >> > had last winter, you could see a large fall in the price of oil,"
>> said
>> >> > Gary
>> >> > Pokoik, who manages Hedge Ventures Energy in Los Angeles, an energy
>> >> hedge
>> >> > fund. "I think there is still a lot of risk in the market."
>> >> >
>> >> > As it stands now, the recent oil-price slump has brought the
>> national
>> >> > average for a gallon of unleaded gasoline down to $2.59,
>> according to
>> >> the
>> >> > AAA motor club. In the Seattle area, prices per gallon have
>> fallen to
>> >> > $2.856
>> >> > currently from $3.071 a month ago, a decline of 7 percent,
>> >> according to
>> >> > AAA.
>> >> >
>> >> > Should oil traders fear that this downward price spiral will get
>> worse
>> >> and
>> >> > run for the exits by selling off their futures contracts, Verleger
>> >> said,
>> >> > it's not unthinkable that oil prices could return to $15 or less a
>> >> barrel,
>> >> > at least temporarily. That could mean gasoline prices as low as
>> $1.15
>> >> per
>> >> > gallon.
>> >> >
>> >> > Other experts won't guess at a floor price, but they agree that a
>> race
>> >> to
>> >> > the bottom could break out.
>> >> >
>> >> > "The market may test levels here that are too low to be sustained,"
>> >> said
>> >> > Clay Seigle, an analyst at Cambridge Energy Research Associates, a
>> >> > consultancy in Boston.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Monday, the oil-producing cartel OPEC hinted that if prices fall
>> >> > precipitously, OPEC members would cut production to lift them. But
>> >> that
>> >> > would take time.
>> >> >
>> >> > "That takes six to nine months. If we don't have a really cold
>> winter
>> >> here
>> >> > [creating a demand for oil], prices will fall. Literally, you don't
>> >> know
>> >> > where the floor is," Verleger said. "In a market like this, if
>> things
>> >> > start
>> >> > falling ... prices could take you back to the 1999 levels. It has
>> >> nothing
>> >> > to
>> >> > do with production."
>> >> >
>> >> > <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/general/copyright.html>
>> >> > __________________________________________________
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>> >> > __________________________________________________
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